Gun buster signs and NO-GUN employers

This is a discussion on Gun buster signs and NO-GUN employers within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Ok let's do this from the opposite angle. You are a business owner. This is your life, the source of your families food on the ...

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  1. #46
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    Ok let's do this from the opposite angle.

    You are a business owner. This is your life, the source of your families food on the table so to speak. You live a good life but everything you have is invested in the family business. You support the 2A and welcome CC'ers, OC'ers, employees to carry firearms, you carry everyday.

    For whatever reason Billy the grocery sacker is in the break room practicing his fast draw to impress the new vegetable manager and sends a round through the wall. It strikes a elderly woman who would later be described by her family as a sweet gentle woman who survived the holocaust, carries her husbands WW II, Colt .45 everywhere she goes, supported gun rights her entire life and then ends up dying in the produce aisle of your store.

    Due to the expected civil suit Billy, who has $26.00 in his checking account during his deposition with the families attorney strikes a deal that he will testify that you encouraged your employees to carry a firearm, required no training, had no clearing barrels, gun lockers, or rifle racks and that you knew he had only fired 6 rounds from his gun during his CCW class.

    Guess who now loses what they worked for so hard. It is easy for us to say it is all about the dollar and the responsibility is on the individual to make sure they are safe but folks it does not happen. You allow it in your place of business you are responsible.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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  3. #47
    Senior Member Array txron's Avatar
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    All I can think of is the sign "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service"

    It is their place, not mine. They set the rules. If I don't like the policies, I have the option to work some place else. When I have my own business, I can set the rules (within the laws). I cannot carry at my place of business (company policy). Until recently (Texas passed a law), I could not even have my gun in the car in the parking lot to protect ,myself going to and from work. That was the deal when I accepted the job. Just as much my choice as theirs.
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  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Ok let's do this from the opposite angle.

    You are a business owner. This is your life, the source of your families food on the table so to speak. You live a good life but everything you have is invested in the family business. You support the 2A and welcome CC'ers, OC'ers, employees to carry firearms, you carry everyday.

    For whatever reason Billy the grocery sacker is in the break room practicing his fast draw to impress the new vegetable manager and sends a round through the wall. It strikes a elderly woman who would later be described by her family as a sweet gentle woman who survived the holocaust, carries her husbands WW II, Colt .45 everywhere she goes, supported gun rights her entire life and then ends up dying in the produce aisle of your store.

    Due to the expected civil suit Billy, who has $26.00 in his checking account during his deposition with the families attorney strikes a deal that he will testify that you encouraged your employees to carry a firearm, required no training, had no clearing barrels, gun lockers, or rifle racks and that you knew he had only fired 6 rounds from his gun during his CCW class.

    Guess who now loses what they worked for so hard. It is easy for us to say it is all about the dollar and the responsibility is on the individual to make sure they are safe but folks it does not happen. You allow it in your place of business you are responsible.
    And on the flip side, I have known a family business in NC that, after being robbed and threatened with execution (an arriving LEO scared the BG off in time), encouraged everyone including employees to openly carry. Only the good fortune of a deputy stopping to purchase something saved them. No one every fired a shot--purposely or otherwise--no one ever filed a lawsuit, and no one ever attempted to rob the business again.

    One can imagine whatever one wishes, but that's not always the reality. Again I say, if liability is your primary concern in maintaining your self defence with a firearm, why bother to carry at all?
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  5. #49
    Senior Member Array DaGunny's Avatar
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    I own a retail business and over 90% of my customer base are women. I have a CCW and I CC all day, every day...as does my wife. My employee manual requires that they comply with State laws governing weapons and specifically prohibits them from OC on the premises. It further states that should a robbery occur, they are to take no action to protect property or money.

    Our sole purpose for CCing at work is to protect ourselves, employees, and customers from grievious harm at the hands of a BG. North Carolina law allows a business owner to have weapons cached in a business, to protect a business. My wife & I just took it a step further to get CCWs so as to not have weapons just stashed around that could be used by an untrained employee.
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  6. #50
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Gasmitty. Simply because freedom of religion is protected by the Constitution and per Federal law it is unlawful to discriminate based on race, religion, handicap and so on. Concealed carry holders/gun owners are not an ethnic group or handicapped.
    Wrong. The Constitution limits government. It does not limit people, nor does it limit what people do on their own property.

    Federal law says it is unlawful to discriminate on private property, but there is nothing to support that in the Constitution, making such laws un-Constitutional. They should have been overturned long ago. Laws against discrimination on public property are Constitutional (public order). There is a difference.

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillep Harding View Post
    Wrong. The Constitution limits government. It does not limit people, nor does it limit what people do on their own property.

    Federal law says it is unlawful to discriminate on private property, but there is nothing to support that in the Constitution, making such laws un-Constitutional. They should have been overturned long ago. Laws against discrimination on public property are Constitutional (public order). There is a difference.
    I don't know about you, but I'm glad the Civil Rights Act of 64 passed.
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    I understand and support the 2A that's is why I am on the forum, however that being said there are folks working in the factory I just retired from that should never have a loaded gun on their person. It's just to damn scarry to think about...
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  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveJohnson View Post
    I don't know about you, but I'm glad the Civil Rights Act of 64 passed.
    see, that's the difference.

    The Civil Rights Act was about people being allowed to work, go to a restaurant, a movie theatre, drink water.

    the 2nd Amendment is only about what you can carry with you, as you do those things.
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  10. #54
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    The problem with these threads is that they always come down to the same things:
    1 - foot stomping over claims of property rights and trying to equate public oriented businesses with private residences, usually by extreme analogy
    2 - arguments about the US constitution vs civil rights.
    3 - Claims that Joe Employee / Jane Customer is a bumbling Barney Fife waiting to happen, while said owner / manager is always a proficient commando.

    The last one, being much along the line of thinking used by the common Anti, who thinks that we need laws, rules, regulations, and other prohibitions to protect people because we all know that the magic barriers, signs, and rule books work wonders.

  11. #55
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    Wrong. The Constitution limits government. It does not limit people, nor does it limit what people do on their own property.

    Federal law says it is unlawful to discriminate on private property, but there is nothing to support that in the Constitution, making such laws un-Constitutional. They should have been overturned long ago. Laws against discrimination on public property are Constitutional (public order). There is a difference.
    So what you just said confirms that a property owner/business owner can do what they want on their property so the no firearms signs are the right of the business owner. As I stated as a gun owner/carrier we do not fall under any provision or category of a minority, handicapped or so on so the property owner is not discriminating against us when he posts his property. It is their choice.

    Oldvet my post was intended simply to give an example from a property owner's standpoint. If it was possible to control everyone else all the time great but all it takes in one person, one mistake and the business would go belly up, is it worth the risk for the owner? That is a decision that they have to make.

    My employee manual requires that they comply with State laws governing weapons and specifically prohibits them from OC on the premises. It further states that should a robbery occur, they are to take no action to protect property or money.
    Not being argumentative I applaud you for doing it, however should an employee violate your company policy and take action in a robbery or practice his quick draw in the break room (I know that is a very basic example) and injure or kill someone you could/would be held liable for their actions whether you have a policy in place or not. Even if you terminated that person for violating company policy you would/could be told it was your responsibility to ensure that they did not violate it. You are responsible for them and their actions while they are on the clock. Are you prepared to lose what you have worked so hard for?


    I understand and support the 2A that's is why I am on the forum, however that being said there are folks working in the factory I just retired from that should never have a loaded gun on their person. It's just to damn scary to think about...
    I agree completely but it is their right to own and carry whether they know what they are doing or not and again you are correct it is a very scary thing to think about. I have said on many occasions some people should not be allowed to carry a spork much less a firearm.

    Gentleman I wish this was a world where everyone who carried a firearm was a responsible, trained, mature adult with common sense but they are not. Some take carrying a firearm more seriously than others.
    I also wish that we had not become the lawsuit dependent nation that we are but it's to late now. When a person can sue a restaurant because the hot coffee they serve spilled and burned them or the special order cheeseburger they just ordered and watched them cook now burns their mouth when they unwrap it at the counter and take a bite. What do you think happens when there is an incident, accidentally or on purpose, in a business that knowingly encourages or allows firearms?

    I know that when I put on my firearm every morning that unless something severe happens and I need to use it the gun will not come out of the holster. I know that if something happens and I do have to use my weapon for self defense there is a very high probability that I will hit and neutralize my intended target with only enough rounds fired to end the threat without anyone else being hurt, but I cannot say that about the person next to me who purchased his gun, went to a minimal course or none at all and has not fired it in six months.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  12. #56
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    The problem with these threads is that they always come down to the same things:
    1 - foot stomping over claims of property rights and trying to equate public oriented businesses with private residences, usually by extreme analogy
    2 - arguments about the US constitution vs civil rights.
    3 - Claims that Joe Employee / Jane Customer is a bumbling Barney Fife waiting to happen, while said owner / manager is always a proficient commando.

    The last one, being much along the line of thinking used by the common Anti, who thinks that we need laws, rules, regulations, and other prohibitions to protect people because we all know that the magic barriers, signs, and rule books work wonders
    A public orientated business is still private property subject to the rules and regulations of the owner. Even a publicly traded company is still governed by rules, regulations and bylaws set up by the board or directors.

    I was under the impression that the Constitution and civil rights work kind of hand in hand but maybe I am incorrect in my thinking.

    No one said everyone however simply look at the posts regarding "Man drops gun in movie theater and it goes off" "Customer shoots self in the butt in Mc Donalds". All it takes is one. I have never equated being a business owner with a "Proficient Commando" unless there is some secret training school for owners and managers that I don't know about. They are just like everyone else.

    To me there is only one law that needs to be enforced, trained, reenforced and trained again and that is the law of common sense. Unfortunately no matter what there will always be those who no matter what you do to instill it will miss that segment of the class. Where do you think the anti's come up with some of there propaganda? "Man shoots self in the ass in Mc Donalds" "Man drops gun in movie theater and it goes off" "Man carries illegal sawed off shotgun into market". We provide a lot of it for them.

    Absolutely no one has said the gun buster signs will stop a criminal nor will the signs that welcome concealed carriers. All it takes is one determined individual to end your life and this type person is not worried you or someone in your store is carrying a gun. He will simply come in the door under the assumption that everyone is armed and ready to shoot the first one he considers a threat.

    Threads like these usually do come down to these main topics because those are the main issues that surround it. If there is something new you wish to add please do.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    The problem with these threads is that they always come down to the same things:
    1 - foot stomping over claims of property rights and trying to equate public oriented businesses with private residences, usually by extreme analogy
    When I took a business law class, we discussed at great length the public/private entity of a business. Federal courts have upheld the fact that a privately owned businesses (which most are unless something like a "public" utility) have rights just as individuals do, especially those that are incorporated as a legal entity. That's why a "corporation" can file a lawsuit against another corporation, just as one individual can file a suit against another. Therefore the business/private residence relationship is sound.

    KMart is not a public company, it is not public property, and while K-mart is "open" to the public, customers are "invitees" and the business has the right to establish conditions for allowing invitees to enter. Public is generall defined as that which is owned by the people, more specifically that which is government owned, as we are the public--although sometimes it doesn't appear that way.

    Whether posted or not, a business can ask you to leave if you are carrying against its wishes, and you are obliged to do so.
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  14. #58
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveJohnson View Post
    I don't know about you, but I'm glad the Civil Rights Act of 64 passed.
    I used to joke that my relatives in Louisiana were kicked out of the KKK for extremism. Actually, I suspect they never bothered to join, regarding the KKK as a bunch of pansies. That branch of the family reformed after the worst of the lot died. To the relief of many.

    A lot of insane behavior was tolerated, even encouraged, prior to that Act. The Act was needed to slap some sense into the population, but I think some parts over reach. It needs cleaning up, and some parts enforced more rigorously.

    The Act treats "public property" and "public area" as the same. They are NOT. That, I think, is what some are failing to keep in mind. "Open to the public" does not mean you have a right to be there.

    While I regard gun buster signs to foolish, there is simply no way to require people to have good sense, either by legislature nor by Constitutional Amendment.
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  15. #59
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    For whatever reason Billy the grocery sacker is in the break room practicing his fast draw to impress the new vegetable manager and sends a round through the wall.
    Now what is a lot more likely? Robberies, either in the store or in the parking lot. The owners are trying to avoid all risk, instead of managing risk, so they end up with greater risk of an event. Well, their choice.

    The general population in some areas are so cowardly that either will result in the business going broke. I recall two bars in the Sunnyvale/Palo Alto area that had to close because of shootings in the parking lots, one of them after the bar closed. No one would go to those bars. (Stupid yuppies)

  16. #60
    Ex Member Array CaveJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillep Harding View Post
    Now what is a lot more likely? Robberies, either in the store or in the parking lot. The owners are trying to avoid all risk, instead of managing risk, so they end up with greater risk of an event. Well, their choice.

    The general population in some areas are so cowardly that either will result in the business going broke. I recall two bars in the Sunnyvale/Palo Alto area that had to close because of shootings in the parking lots, one of them after the bar closed. No one would go to those bars. (Stupid yuppies)
    I used to go to a bar where people got shot waiting to get in. It's also in a horrible city rife with violent crime, but still.

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