The Uncomfortable Truth About School Shootings

The Uncomfortable Truth About School Shootings

This is a discussion on The Uncomfortable Truth About School Shootings within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; The Uncomfortable Truth About School Shootings By Ken Hanson In a remarkable moment of candor, Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell today acknowledged that stronger gun laws ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array Angio333's Avatar
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    The Uncomfortable Truth About School Shootings

    The Uncomfortable Truth About School Shootings

    By Ken Hanson

    In a remarkable moment of candor, Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell today acknowledged that stronger gun laws could not have prevented the horrible shooting at the Amish school in Lancaster County.

    Rendell, a staunch gun control advocate, admitted, “I believe with all my heart that we need more gun control” during a live press conference. But he also acknowledged that tougher gun laws would not have prevented gunman Charles Carl Roberts IV from carrying out his deadly attack, noting, “You can make all the changes you want, but you can never stop a random act of violence by someone intent on taking his own life.”

    Despite this, due to the current rash of school shootings, America is going to be inundated with lists from media talking heads and/or government taskforces/hearings (including a taskforce called by President Bush for next week), each list itemizing steps that need to be taken to protect the children. Since we are a short attention span culture, these lists will typically be advertised as “X easy steps to prevent school shootings.”

    The uncomfortable reality is that we CAN NEVER prevent school/workplace shootings, and I would venture to assert that this has already been conclusively proven. Anytime there is a workplace shooting involving multiple victims, you will have a 95%+ chance that it occurred at a workplace 1.) banning all guns, even in parking lots, and 2.) with some reasonable form of onsite security. Further, with all of the school shootings in the past decade, schools across the country have taken extraordinary “soft security” measures – metal detectors, cameras, resource officers etc. Yet shootings continue to occur.

    You can read the rest of the article:
    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article3311.html


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    The only answer is only a partial answer: arm the friggin' teachers.

    I think the Israelis do that, and they don't have this !@#$@# problem over there.

    Sure, some madman might kill a couple of kids. Or a couple of teachers. Or both.

    But he'd be cut down before he could do MORE monstrous damage.

    It wouldn't hurt to allow CCW for parents on school grounds, too.

    But on this board I'm preaching to the choir.....

  3. #3
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    I just keep wondering how we came to this. I went to public school in New York City, and we never had these problems. I don't recall school shootings when I was growing up, barely a knifing once every couple of years.

    It seems like this has come about in the last 20 years........
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

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    +1, rstickle...

    and I remember when the JROTC Rifle Team had access to firearms, not just to air rifles, and this problem did not exist. During hunting season, I saw Winchester Model 94s in gun racks, and the problem did not exist.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    It was not uncommon to see rifles and shotguns in gun racks in the student parking lot at one of my old high schools. No one EVER thought of using one in or around the school.

    So many little things have changed in just a few years that have mounted up to being so much that we have a long hard row to hoe to get things to remotely resemble what they used to be.

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    Member Array TattooWings's Avatar
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    I was going to start another thread, but I think this is relevant here.

    This is a (yet another) long one:

    It's interesting to look at Britain, with it's nationwide (island-wide?) gun ban, especially since gun crime is apparently on the increase there.

    The emphasis of the above article is on youth gang crime over petty disputes. What's really interesting is the rate at which they have gun related incidents in some places: "Manchester, where more than two firearms offences are committed by 15- to 20-year-olds each day..."

    If guns are illegal to even own, countrywide, then it sort of puts a damper on the "let's ban all guns" argument.

    In a country with an across the board gun ban, children as young as eleven apparently somehow manage to get their hands on firearms. I'd compare it to a war on something else in this country but this isn't the correct forum.

    Suffice it to say; gun bans don't work. Guns exist. And you cannot simply wish a technology out of existence once it's been discovered and developed. Guns are here. Nuclear weapons are here. Drugs are here.

    Gun bans don't work.

    So what does? What are the factors about our country which have changed in the last few decades that are making the problem worse? Could it be, say, an increase in "dependent upon the system" attitudes? The same attitudes which are usually in favor of gun-bans.

    True; arming the teachers might tend to have a deterrent effect on some school shootings. It might certainly make some potential shooters think twice before bringing a gun to school. But not all of them, and I think, not most of them. The children that do these things are self-destructing individuals, just like the adults which do the same heinous things. Their own safety is not first and foremost on their minds. In a real sense, they have already given up.

    Without addressing underlying causes, I don't think arming teachers is an ultimate solution to the real problem. It does nothing to address why children feel the need to bring weapons to school in the first place.

    I'll repeat the "I'm no parent" caveat, but what I think we're trying to teach young people is that they can affect their own future without resorting to violence. "Be self-reliant," is the opposite of "be self-destructive because there's nothing else you can do."

    I think the real problem is one of attitudes about self and life which kids learn mostly at home, one way or another.

    IOWs; I think fatalism kills, in more ways than one.

    If I'm sounding like a "keyboard shrink" I apologize. But I really believe it's these kinds of "learned helplessness/fatalistic" attitudes which are to blame for a whole host of ills, and not just in this country. Just ask the British. And why be surprised? The British government demands helplessness of it's subjects! Don't even get me started about their economy or employment policies.

    -ed
    "A government is the most dangerous threat to man's rights: it holds a legal monopoly on the use of physical force against legally disarmed victims." - Ayn Rand, The Nature of Government, 1964

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    Senior Member Array .45acp's Avatar
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    In my opinion the factors are several fold.

    Parents, they don't instill values, it's become a feel good world, whatever makes you happy, instant gratification and a lack of discipline.

    Discipline, or more correctly, lack of it.
    While I don't beleive in abuse there are other methods. One that I used was to take a favorite toy, regardless of any cost and dispose of it, not ground the child to his or her room with cable tv but permanantly lose something that they like.
    Sending a child to their room filled with toys, computers, video games, cell phones, etc is not a punishment.

    Positive reinforcement-They should be rewarded for positive accomplishments or actions.

    Family, this is what it all boils down to. Parental involvement, dinners together, discussions, responsabilities, even the evil C word (chores).
    Too many kids run and eat fast food, no family togetherness, it's become a do what you want world.

    Tv, glorifies drugs, sex, violence and doing your own thing.

    Bring back the family, one that teaches right and wrong as well as responsibility. I think even church helps as it's something the family will do together.

    Schools, bring back the pledge and a moment of silence, bring back basics and forget all this revisionist *stuff*. Homework and study haven't been detrimental in the past.

    Yes, I am "old school" and not pc but hey it worked in the past.
    PC has become the term for Political Cowardice.

  8. #8
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    Yep...even if we did manage to remove all guns everywhere and anywhere from the equation people would still be killing eachother with pipebombs, baseball bats, vehicles, whatever they couldg et their hands on.

    People seem to fail to understand that killing is a very old practice. The word Massacre is alot older than the word Firearm.
    "Life exists at a level of complexity almost beyond our ability to comprehend. It's a well known fact that if you try to take apart a cat to see how it works one of the first things you have on your hands is a non-working cat" - Douglas Adams

    "All things are governed by law" - Hippocrates

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by .45acp View Post
    In my opinion the factors are several fold.
    <SNIP>
    Tv, glorifies drugs, sex, violence and doing your own thing.
    Maybe we should be banning TV instead of guns. Seems like a lot of this started about the same time as MTV.
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

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    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    TattooWings, awesome post!

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    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstickle View Post
    I just keep wondering how we came to this. I went to public school in New York City, and we never had these problems. I don't recall school shootings when I was growing up, barely a knifing once every couple of years.

    It seems like this has come about in the last 20 years........
    Reap what you sow. We are seeing the end result of decades of the "non-judgemental" approach to child rearing. Nothing is truly wrong, until bodies pile up but by then it is too late. We have also seen a steady desensitization to violence for a long time. Movies pile gore upon gore to the point that the horror movies become comedies. If adults, with a developed moral sense want to watch that it is fine. You cannot sit children in front of this crud from the time they are 5 to when they are 18 while at the same time neglecting to teach them any true morality except the worship of instant gratification and then expect them to behave as positive contributors to society.

    It is not just television
    It is not just movies
    It is not just immersive violent video games
    It is not just degrading and violent music (if you can call rap music)
    It is not just teaching
    It is not just parenting (although parenting can solve all the above)

    It is all of the above.

    I am not in favor of censoring media or computers for adults, but I do think PARENTS need to be held responsible for the crud they raise their children on. The problem now is we have at least one generation that has been raised on all of the above and sees no problem doing the same with the next generation.

    I am in my mid 30s with a 4 year old little girl and a boy on the way. My wife and I are adament about how we raise our daughter, to the point that we waited until my wife could quit her job before having our first. Even in Pre-K (my little girl's first year of school started this September) we can clearly see a difference between the kids whose parents raised them themselves and paid attention to the job and those problem kids. Those would be the ones pushing other kids, taking things, throwing blocks and talking back. Take that poorly parented child and throw on another 14 years of Grand Theft Auto, Friday the 13th, Saw, MTV, Emminem, and other infulences complete with a lack of discipline and no guiding morality and it is a wonder we do not have more of these sociopaths.

    Of course for many the simlpe solution is "Ban Guns!" I am certain the sociopaths will obey the laws passed and therefore solve the problem...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by .45acp View Post
    In my opinion the factors are several fold.

    Parents, they don't instill values, it's become a feel good world, whatever makes you happy, instant gratification and a lack of discipline.

    Discipline, or more correctly, lack of it.
    While I don't beleive in abuse there are other methods. One that I used was to take a favorite toy, regardless of any cost and dispose of it, not ground the child to his or her room with cable tv but permanantly lose something that they like.
    Sending a child to their room filled with toys, computers, video games, cell phones, etc is not a punishment.

    Positive reinforcement-They should be rewarded for positive accomplishments or actions.

    Family, this is what it all boils down to. Parental involvement, dinners together, discussions, responsabilities, even the evil C word (chores).
    Too many kids run and eat fast food, no family togetherness, it's become a do what you want world.

    Tv, glorifies drugs, sex, violence and doing your own thing.

    Bring back the family, one that teaches right and wrong as well as responsibility. I think even church helps as it's something the family will do together.

    Schools, bring back the pledge and a moment of silence, bring back basics and forget all this revisionist *stuff*. Homework and study haven't been detrimental in the past.

    Yes, I am "old school" and not pc but hey it worked in the past.
    I'm "old school" too, and I couldn't agree more.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TattooWings View Post
    True; arming the teachers might tend to have a deterrent effect on some school shootings. It might certainly make some potential shooters think twice before bringing a gun to school. But not all of them, and I think, not most of them. The children that do these things are self-destructing individuals, just like the adults which do the same heinous things. Their own safety is not first and foremost on their minds. In a real sense, they have already given up.-ed
    I would disagree with you, on that. In places where a death penalty is certain and virtually immediate, anti-social terroristic acts are far less common. Terrorists are arguably some of the least "life-conscious" of criminals, but in every instance where immediate, brutal, retaliation for their acts was the norm- they disappear for looong periods of time. (Hezbollah -IIRC-kidnapping of a Soviet diplomat in the early 80s; Marxist hijacking of Nigerain-again, IIRC- airliner in the mid 70s; etc...) Having one's head exploded, where everyone around can see you defecate yourself, tends to remove the "romantic" quality. Also, the more promptly one is made dead, the less damage one can do.

    Regarding the parenting issue- I very much agree. Unfortunately, this will require a strong Nationalist, "American Pride"(vs, hyphenated americans), return to personal-responsibility, movement, which I don't see as being very likely.

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Wisconsin Lawmaker says it!

    I took this from the CNN homepage.
    "A Wisconsin lawmaker say arming school officials would protect students. WKOW's Sean Ryan reports. (October 5)"

    Video interview with Rep Frank Lasee?
    Here's the link to the cnn video http://dynamic.cnn.com/apps/tp/video...w/video.ws.asx.
    I ripped the link from the source in CNN's dynamic content so I'm not sure how long it will be there.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array Wayne's Avatar
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    I agree with all the above.

    I really think it's the parents and somewhat the schools (with their toucy feely crap).

    When I was growing up I got my butt whopped on and I still don't consider it abuse. But now days the government has basically told the parents that they can't do that any longer.

    TV and video games may play a part, I really can't say yes or no due to when I was growing up, space invaders and very conservative type tv shows were in the house. I grew up with cop and detective shows and HBO was just coming out when I was in 6th grade.

    I don't watch much tv now days, mostly sci-fi, fox news, and the local news as well as some of the religious channels for my weekly dose of scripture.

    Computers, sure I play PvP games on it in real time, I've played doom as well as Halo but have no thoughts of taking fantasy and thinking it's reality.

    But then again, I'm old.

    I will say this, America and American's need to shape up quickly or we are going to be the youngest country in history to go down in flames.

    Wayne

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