Framing the argument (Long post)

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Thread: Framing the argument (Long post)

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    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Framing the argument (Long post)

    This is my best argument for the 2A and I have succesfully changed minds with it. There is no greater pleasure than seeing the light come on in an anti's mind. It is my hope that it will help someone else do the same.

    This argument usually comes up 1. when talking to an anti who says, “I don’t mind people having a gun to go hunting or something, but that’s the only reason I can see to justify owning a gun, or 2. a comment such as this one that I copied from a Fox News thread:

    "If I were president, I would immediately institute stringent gun control laws. The right to bear arms, while guaranteed by the Constitution, is no longer necessary in modern society. Civilians should not be allowed to own firearms unless there are special circumstances and they undergo mandatory psychiatric evaluations every two years. Our children deserve better, more secure lives. It is pathetic that any loser with a firearm can make himself infamous in seconds."
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,217322,00.html

    With the 1st position I begin with part 1, and for the latter I begin with part two:

    Part 1: Question. What were the founding fathers doing at the time of the revolution, leading up to the drafting of our constitution? (Quote Declaration of Ind. People’s right and duty line, you know the one)

    Answer: Citizens were using their personally owned firearms to work side by side with the beginnings of the US Army to fend off the tyranny of the English King. It is in this context that the second amendment was drafted. The 2A has nothing to do with owning a deer rifle or shooting ducks, it’s about having the means to defend one's self and to fend off government tyranny, period.

    Usual liberal reply: Yeah but we don’t need to fight off our government, we have free speech and we can vote. We don’t need guns to remain free.

    Next question: Even if you don’t believe what I have already said, let me ask you if we currently are able to own guns in this country.

    Liberal reply: Yeah.

    Now they are open and listening so I proceed with the following:

    Part II: As an American, you are fortunate enough to be born into a country were you can be free from tyranny. You are guaranteed certain rights handed down to you from previous generations, and it is each and every citizen’s DUTY to ensure that those rights remain in place for future generations. You are correct that I don’t need my guns, at present, to fend off tyranny. But that is no reason why I should forfeit that right for my unborn grandchildren and for their heirs.

    Throughout history, one despot after another has enslaved people on every continent on this planet. How is it that you are so filled with hubris as to not consider the lasting effect of the right that you forfeit today on your grandchildren’s children? How can you be so certain that another Hitler will not rise to power in this nation and throw your grandbabies into an oven one day? How would you like to be remembered as a member of the generation that is responsible for taking away their ability to resist such evil by giving up the rights that you were fortunate enough to be born with? That’s what the 2A is really about. That’s what freedom is really about. That’s what being an American is about. Therefore: if you don’t want to own a gun, fine, but don’t’ give away your right to, don’t’ give away my right to, and for God’s sake don’t give away the right of your great great grandchildren, because if you do they may curse you for it one day, as they are helplessly marched to their death.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

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    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    Interesting perspective, and very true.

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    Superb. Absolutely, precisely correct. The only problem I've encountered with that approach seems to be the willingness of the listener to accept an alternative view long enough to really consider it. I have found that with gun-control advocates, every single one shuts down when logic or historical fact are applied. Every ... single ... one. Once you start getting into the historical purpose of the 2nd Am, founders, etc., they always say, "That no longer applies," or "we are a modern society now," or something to that effect, and then end the discussion.
    "You may not know it, but there's things that gnaw at a man worse than dyin'."

    Charles Travis Postlewaite, 1882

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    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Well put. I also tend to ask them, "isn't the pen mightier than the sword"? If so, let's ban free speach too while we are at it. After all, words have lead to the deaths of more pople than anything else. Believe me they never want to give up their right to run off at the mouth.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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    Senior Member Array Zundfolge's Avatar
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    Usual liberal reply: Yeah but we don’t need to fight off our government, we have free speech and we can vote. We don’t need guns to remain free.
    And these are the same people that believe that Bush STOLE the election.

    Throw that one in the mix sometime with an anti-gun Democrat and watch the wheels turn.

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    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJon View Post
    Superb. Absolutely, precisely correct. The only problem I've encountered with that approach seems to be the willingness of the listener to accept an alternative view long enough to really consider it. I have found that with gun-control advocates, every single one shuts down when logic or historical fact are applied. Every ... single ... one. Once you start getting into the historical purpose of the 2nd Am, founders, etc., they always say, "That no longer applies," or "we are a modern society now," or something to that effect, and then end the discussion.
    It is true that some antis will not change their minds, no matter what, i don't waste my time with them. But, I believe the hardcores to be the minority, most just aren't looking at the 2A from an accurate perspective.

    The "we are a modern society" argument tends to be greatly weakened when framed with the argument of handing down liberty to future generations, who may one day be exposed to tyranny.

    The last thing they expect is to agree with you, or you with them, so when they say we don't need guns to figh against our gov't now, you agree and that catches them off guard and will usually open their ears. When you agree, they let down their defenses a little, becuase you've shown that you are listening to what they have to say. I admit it's a trick, but it usually works.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

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    Very Good - Excellent Posted Thread.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

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    "we are a modern society now,"
    As BigJon mentions - that is a favorite!

    I often ask folks if this ''modern society'' is free of violence - to which, unless they are totally out of things - will have to answer in the affirmative. That then allows for a progression to discuss the defensive aspects of gun ownership.

    Of course some will counter that with another favorite - ''I hate guns'' - and sometimes that one is a brick wall! For me, I could say ''I hate criminal's guns, but love life''. The choice we make over our personal ''victim'' status/potential.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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