How do we defend against this?

How do we defend against this?

This is a discussion on How do we defend against this? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I like to keep myself educated about what the opposition is using to back up their arugment for gun legislation. Today I stumbled across this ...

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Thread: How do we defend against this?

  1. #1
    Member Array steffen's Avatar
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    How do we defend against this?

    I like to keep myself educated about what the opposition is using to back up their arugment for gun legislation. Today I stumbled across this website that keeps a tally of homicides committed by CCW permit holders. If you click on any of the counters, you'll get a PDF file with the details of each shooting. I checked several of the newer news articles that were listed, and the reports in the PDF files were accurate based on what was reported in the article. On the other hand, I don't think it is fair that the total numbers include "pending" cases, and a few of the articles didn't actually say anything about a CCW permit. I also think it is unfair not to include the shootings that were ruled self-defense in a separate category for comparison.

    So, what is my point?

    1. When facts like these are presented by the "anti-gun" side, how do those of us who consider ourselves good, law-abiding, crime-preventing CCW permit holders defend our right to carry?
    2. Is it possible to prevent rapists and murderers from having access to guns without infringing upon the rights of the law-abiding citizens? If yes, then how; if no, why not?
    3. If the government wasn't able to catch all of these murderers using existing controls, is there any reasonable way to catch them? If yes, then how; if no, why not?

    To be clear, I'm not trying to incite a riot here on this forum, but instead an intelligent discussion about how we can counter the arguments put forward by the "anti-gun" side. I have my own opinions, but I would like to hear what this community thinks.
    Last edited by steffen; November 13th, 2012 at 05:28 PM. Reason: Modified 2nd part of questions 2 and 3 to read "If yes, then how; if no, why not?"


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
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    Humans are imperfect, whether they have a permit or not. You could easily point out that the number of crimes committed by those with no permit vastly outweighs those with. You could point out that there is never going to be any such thing as Utopia, and their anecdotal evidence is useless in the absence of any context. The bottom line is, those who look at things like that and are convinced have failed to look at the big picture. If you want to defend against it, you need to do your homework and fix that problem. Finally, the biggest thing, and the true battle, is in the realm of morality. If you can convince them that rendering those who do not initiate force against others defenseless is utterly immoral, then you have truly won the intellectual battle. Think before you speak, and best of luck in any debates you may have.
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    Realize that even if all cited cases on the website are legitimate criminal homicides (they aren't) that they represent a mere fraction of a percent of all criminal homicides committed during that time frame in the US. Only the vignettes which support the concealed carry killers assertion are presented.
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    I total right around 1000 incidents they show. Based on how many CCW permit holders in the US? I know my permit # is over 30,000.....and thats just here in New Mexico.

    The anti's never show the real numbers.
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    The VPC.... 'nuff said.
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    If it's on the internet it must be true.

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    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    We don't defend against it. It's not an argument really. It just proves to me that they are worried about the wrong chart. Cliche, but have them look into fatalities caused by licensed drivers.

    And if they can't come up with that magical, reasonable way to catch homicidal criminals, then I will continue to rely on my magical, reasonable way to defend against them. But wait, even if everyone in the country was nice and decent, 2A still points out the right....never mind, this will take a while.
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    Member Array steffen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peckman28 View Post
    Humans are imperfect, whether they have a permit or not. You could easily point out that the number of crimes committed by those with no permit vastly outweighs those with. You could point out that there is never going to be any such thing as Utopia, and their anecdotal evidence is useless in the absence of any context. The bottom line is, those who look at things like that and are convinced have failed to look at the big picture. If you want to defend against it, you need to do your homework and fix that problem. Finally, the biggest thing, and the true battle, is in the realm of morality. If you can convince them that rendering those who do not initiate force against others defenseless is utterly immoral, then you have truly won the intellectual battle. Think before you speak, and best of luck in any debates you may have.
    Thanks for the tips/opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by whoppo View Post
    The VPC.... 'nuff said.
    IMO, the VPC is the most significant threat of all of the anti-gun organizations out there even though they are a smaller, less powerful organization. The VPC finds the real data, then the bigger organizations manipulate it to fit their agenda.

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    Member Array steffen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprp View Post
    We don't defend against it. It's not an argument really. It just proves to me that they are worried about the wrong chart. Cliche, but have them look into fatalities caused by licensed drivers.

    And if they can't come up with that magical, reasonable way to catch homicidal criminals, then I will continue to rely on my magical, reasonable way to defend against them. But wait, even if everyone in the country was nice and decent, 2A still points out the right....never mind, this will take a while.
    I can't believe I never thought of the part in bold. If you replace "CCW" with "Driver license" you can come up with some pretty funny headlines.

    Individual with Driver License arrested for DUI.
    Individual with Driver License arrested for reckless driving.
    Individual with Driver License arrested for manslaughter.

    Then the argument: Since 2007, 1.5 Million people have died in automobile accidents that were caused by individuals with Driver Licenses. Driving should be illegal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mprp View Post
    We don't defend against it. It's not an argument really. It just proves to me that they are worried about the wrong chart. Cliche, but have them look into fatalities caused by licensed drivers.
    - Exactly. There isn't a good way to argue about it. No matter what laws you pass, there is going to be someone that breaks it. I'm guessing that murder was also illegal in each one of those cases, but it doesn't look like that law was a deterrent.

    On a related tangent, look at the number of gun crimes committed by people that do no have permits. I can guarantee that none of these people had permits in Chicago...
    Over 56 People Shot In Chicago Over The Weekend (DETAILS) | Global Grind
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    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    As others have posted, raw data can be skewed. Bathtub related injuries rarely happen in a home without indoor plumbing, but I prefer indoor plumbing.
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    Re: How do we defend against this?

    The data doesn't say whether or not they were justifiable homicides.



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    Re: How do we defend against this?

    If you're going to use the driver's license angle, you might as well use the licensed M.D. "kill rate" as well.

    Google it.
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    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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    There's lies, damned lies, and statistics.

    There is not a soul out there who is claiming that CCW holders all have halos and never, ever violate any laws. There is no moral "higher ground" to be gained by obtaining a CCW. In states with a real, live CCW process, in fact it amounts to a mid-level screening to keep criminals from gaining legal permission to carry concealed (or otherwise, by local law). The screening falls somewhere between the ability to fog a mirror and getting a DOE 'Q' security clearance.

    However - if one were to actually look at the crime rate of CCW holders taken as a population (and I didn't say traffic violations or incidence of lawsuits against them), it would be indisputably lower than that of the average population of adult Americans. In all likelihood, the difference would be so great that some nitwits who love to "prove" things by statistics would say that if we mandated CCWs for all adults, the crime rate would go down.

    Let's not let the "antis" frame the debate... let's bring it to them. "Exactly which gun laws do we expect criminals to obey?" is a good start.
    wmhawth, scgunlover1 and atctimmy like this.
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    Stats can and will be manipulated to serve a purpose.

    You ask how do we answer them...... lets manipulate to serve our purpose:
    US population is approximately 315,000,000 the claim on the site you post states "Total people killed by concealed carry killers" 484. Total people killed by drunk drivers 10,228 (2010). That's 21 times more than the gun killings.

    "90 percent of violent crimes are committed without a handgun. Of those committed with a handgun, 93 percent of the guns used were obtained through unlawful means. Registration and waiting times are of little value in deterring criminals." -- Dr. Walter E. Williams

    Nine Myths Of Gun Control

    Keep this in mind, you will never turn the gun control folks so don't let them get to you. Ask them how the "criminals/felons are not allowed to own weapons" law working out so far.

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