Never forget...

This is a discussion on Never forget... within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Pythius yes, full-Jews could not own firearms. but more than 100,000 1/2 Jews and 1/4 Jews, including many officers in the army ...

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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    yes, full-Jews could not own firearms.

    but more than 100,000 1/2 Jews and 1/4 Jews, including many officers in the army & air force, could indeed own firearms.

    and regulations for firearms for all citizens of Germany were loosened, as the above article shows.
    Perhaps this was true, though I doubt it. The Nazis defined a Jew as anyone who had one
    Jewish Grandparent. That was all it took. And they weren't stringent about their criteria for determining
    heritage. Many people who thought they were Christians, were Christians, found themselves in the
    awkward position of wearing a yellow star, getting a "J" stamped on their passports, and being
    arrested.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    Hopyard, very well put.

    Xenophobia and outright bigotry had more to do with the Nazi's final solution than the confiscation of guns did. In no way shape or form am I for gun confiscation but the guns that were still in the hands of non-Jewish/socialists/communists/homosexuals etc were not employed to defend their fellow citizens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    While most folks on this board will argue about the effects of disarming citizens or disarming people
    thought of as "others," we frequently get posts from folks who believe ID cards are needed in our
    society. Just remember as you mistakenly wish that all must have them, that ID cards are a
    tool of totalitarianism
    . When you must have them, they can be taken from you and you get rendered
    a non-person with no rights. When you must have them they can add information: religion, income,
    political affiliation, anything which can be used to target you as "another."

    As I read threads like this, and yes the issue of disarmament deserves discussion and historical
    perspective, please keep in mind that disarming citizens IS NOT the ONLY means by which an overreaching
    government (I don't consider ours that at this point in time) can control everyone. Both Germany and
    The Soviets made ample use of internal passports (ID) as a way to keep the population in control.

    I'd like to see a little more thought on here-- though I realize we are a gun forum-- to some of the
    other things which threaten freedom. Because, believe me, you don't want to get to a point in which
    you need those guns as your last resort for retaining freedom.

    And, I don't for one second believe that the Jewish population of Germany, or of Europe, even if armed
    with small arms, would have been able to resist in any meaningful way against police and military might.
    The end result would have been the same, mass slaughter.

    And just to make clear where I am coming from, my Grand Aunt was forced to dig her own grave and the
    graves of her daughter and grandson. They were then machine gunned but the boy fell (was pushed) beneath
    the pile of bodies and somehow managed to escape during the night and then live in the forests.

    The escape is how the story is known to me. I didn't even know I had relatives in Europe until the
    magic of the internet and web sites allowed me to stumble on that fact, 55 years after.
    "Was there no end to the conspiracy of irrational prejudice against Red Ryder and his peacemaker?"

    Revolvers, “more elegant weapons for a more civilized age.”

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by rammerjammer View Post
    Hopyard, very well put.

    Xenophobia and outright bigotry had more to do with the Nazi's final solution than the confiscation of guns did. In no way shape or form am I for gun confiscation but the guns that were still in the hands of non-Jewish/socialists/communists/homosexuals etc were not employed to defend their fellow citizens.
    Nor were the guns in the hands of ordinary Germans used for that purpose. Most applauded the
    bigotry, or at least happily looked the other way.

    Anyway, the point of my earlier post was not to address that aspect, but to point out that gun confiscation
    is only one of many tool used by totalitarian governments. There are many far more subtle tools that
    are exquisitely effective. I don't want to derail the thread further so for the moment I won't comment
    on them, beyond the need for vigilance in many more areas than gun control.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  5. #34
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    I would say that WE should retain our second ammendment rights here!! All else discussed really doesn't interest me today....with all that is happening in our country ..now.
    All men are equal...CC makes us equal-er.

  6. #35
    Ex Member Array Pythius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Perhaps this was true, though I doubt it. The Nazis defined a Jew as anyone who had one
    Jewish Grandparent....
    This is incorrect. If you were 1/2 Jewish on your mother's side, you were a Jew. If you were 1/4 Jewish on your mother's side, you were a Jew.

    But if you were 1/2 or 1/4 Jewish on your father's side, you were considered Aryan...but a Mischlinge. This included 100,000 German citizens and thousands of officers in the Wehrmacht & Luftwaffe, including a few Generals like Erhard Milche.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    This is incorrect. If you were 1/2 Jewish on your mother's side, you were a Jew. If you were 1/4 Jewish on your mother's side, you were a Jew.

    But if you were 1/2 or 1/4 Jewish on your father's side, you were considered Aryan...but a Mischlinge. This included 100,000 German citizens and thousands of officers in the Wehrmacht & Luftwaffe, including a few Generals like Erhard Milche.
    I might be wrong, but I believe you are confusing Jewish religious law, in which the mother's status
    is important, with German law, in which they went by the 1/4 th rule.

    Added a moment later after doing some research. Initially the definitions were loose. They were codified in the Nuremberg laws, but as a practical matter local authorities often considered 1/8 or even 1/16 sufficient. The law created a class of "half-breeds" who
    got the full treatment. These stories about Jews serving in the army may be true in very selected isolated instances, and early on before the Nuremberg laws and the Wannsee Conference in 1942, but after that it was all to the death camps; when in doubt rub them out.

    (Sorry, that tad of humor is inappropriate to the topic but it makes a valid point about their policy and actions.)
    oneshot likes this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  8. #37
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    Pythius, I think you are missing the point completely. Those "loosened" gun laws allowed the Nazis to know exactly where the guns were and who owned them making it a very simple matter to confiscate. Yes, many Germans experienced an easier time after these laws were loosened but only if they continued to tow the party line. A single report to the Nazi Regime stating otherwise, whether real, perceived or concocted, could mean immediate gun confiscation, prison, or death.

    I get the point you are trying to make and I agree with Hopyard that gun confiscation is it the only tool an oppressive murderous regime has in it's bag of tricks. The point that I was making was twofold:

    1. You're argument is flawed when you take facts out of context.

    2. Allowing a large portion of the population to benefit at the expense of a small portion of the population is an easy way to keep the masses complacent to wrongdoing.

    This was fairly easy to accomplish in the early to mid twentieth century Germany. Any new gun laws that loosened restrictions for the majority of citizens after WWI would be overwhelmingly accepted. Between fear of Communism and widespread Anti-Semitism throught the region, your average citizen was not going to question the Nazis actions and risk being deemed an "unreliable" citizen.

    So my point is that the new gun laws were only perceived to be less restrictive in that they made it easier for the average citizen to legally own firearms but they also made the gun laws easier to to enforce than the previous laws and therefore easier to take away th the whim of the Nazi Party.

  9. #38
    Ex Member Array Pythius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    ...These stories about Jews serving in the army may be true in very selected isolated instances, and early on before the Nuremberg laws and the Wannsee Conference in 1942, but after that it was all to the death camps; when in doubt rub them out...
    No 1/4 or 1/2 Jews were pulled out of the Wehrmacht or Luftwaffe and sent to the death camps. They were considered Mischlinge, and could serve in the armed forces...but not the SS.

    Erhard Milche was 1/2 Jewish, served as a General of the Luftwaffe, and executed by the Soviets after the war.

    Hitler signed many "Certificates of Aryan Blood" for soldiers & officers who were part Jewish.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    No 1/4 or 1/2 Jews were pulled out of the Wehrmacht or Luftwaffe and sent to the death camps. They were considered Mischlinge, and could serve in the armed forces...but not the SS.

    Erhard Milche was 1/2 Jewish, served as a General of the Luftwaffe, and executed by the Soviets after the war.

    Hitler signed many "Certificates of Aryan Blood" for soldiers & officers who were part Jewish.
    This does not square within anything I have ever read before or heard before, and sounds like revisionist history by
    apologists and neoNazis.

    It makes no sense that they would have treated people they considered "half-breads" decently,
    given that their entire sick philosophy was based on a notion of racial purity and the need to
    cleanse (exterminate) just about anyone thought not to be part of that "pure" race.

    As with almost everything in this world there are always exceptions, so I can't sit here and say that such
    a thing NEVER ever happened. I can say it does not sound the least bit believable.
    oneshot and Jeanlouise like this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  11. #40
    Ex Member Array Pythius's Avatar
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    There were 100,000 1/2 and 1/4 Jews in the Wehrmacht & Luftwaffe. This included many officers and a few generals.

    They all had guns.

    And yet, they did NOT form an underground resistance movement to revolt violently against the Nazi regime.

    The fact is, the Nazis completely brainwashed their people, even those with Jewish parents & grandparents, and spouses.

    And the ones who weren't brainwashed...were in daily fear for their survival.

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    There were 100,000 1/2 and 1/4 Jews in the Wehrmacht & Luftwaffe. This included many officers and a few generals.

    They all had guns.

    And yet, they did NOT form an underground resistance movement to revolt violently against the Nazi regime.

    The fact is, the Nazis completely brainwashed their people, even those with Jewish parents & grandparents, and spouses.

    And the ones who weren't brainwashed...were in daily fear for their survival.
    The last few words in bold are about the only part of what you posted that I find believable.

    Here's why--- The Germans had a little habit of grabbing men randomly and pulling their pants down.
    If they were circumcised they were labelled and killed. They erred on the side of assuming
    the person was Jewish. In such a social environment the claim you are making is not particularly
    believable. Again, it has the sound of revisionism to it--but I can't prove you are wrong so
    I'll let it go at that.

    They still wantonly killed 6 million Jews 20 something million Russians, and
    about 70 million in total. They get no medal.

    And to another point--- the key enabling factor was an ability to insist on the carrying of papers.
    Those of us here in the US who want to disavow and change our 14th Amendment and redefine
    US citizenship need to give some thought to how that might ultimately play out as a real world nightmare.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  13. #42
    Ex Member Array Pythius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The last few words in bold are about the only part of what you posted that I find believable.

    Here's why--- The Germans had a little habit of grabbing men randomly and pulling their pants down.
    If they were circumcised they were labelled and killed. They erred on the side of assuming
    the person was Jewish. In such a social environment the claim you are making is not particularly
    believable. Again, it has the sound of revisionism to it--but I can't prove you are wrong so
    I'll let it go at that....
    which claim, that more than 100,000 German citizens were 1/2 or 1/4 Jewish? Its a fact.

    or the claim that lots of officers and even a few Generals in the military were Mischlinge? that too is a fact. Look up Erhard Milche.

    Under German law, folks with one or even two Jewish grandparents could still be a citizen, as long as they were not practicers of the Jewish faith or married to a Jew. But these folks may have very easily still considered themselves Jewish or honored & respected their Jewish heritage.

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    which claim, that more than 100,000 German citizens were 1/2 or 1/4 Jewish? Its a fact.

    or the claim that lots of officers and even a few Generals in the military were Mischlinge? that too is a fact. Look up Erhard Milche.

    Under German law, folks with one or even two Jewish grandparents could still be a citizen, as long as they were not practicers of the Jewish faith or married to a Jew. But these folks may have very easily still considered themselves Jewish or honored & respected their Jewish heritage.
    Your second two claims are revisionism and not factually true. What you are writing sounds like
    an attempt to put a soft edge on a sharp knife of reality. As the old saying goes, 'that dog won't hunt.'
    Good day.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  15. #44
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    THe German laws regarding Jewish ancestry should not be confused with traditional Jewish doctrine. Pythias is correct about how German law worked, a person could petition to have their " Jewishness" changed. There was much litigation on the issue. I do not agree on the "loosening" of gun rights given the ban on Jewry, but he is accurate as to the ancestry law.
    I'd rather be lucky than good any day

    There's nothing that will change someone's moral outlook quicker than cash in large sums.

    Majority rule only works if you're also considering individual rights. Because you can't have five wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper.

  16. #45
    Ex Member Array Pythius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Your second two claims are revisionism and not factually true. What you are writing sounds like
    an attempt to put a soft edge on a sharp knife of reality. As the old saying goes, 'that dog won't hunt.'
    Good day.
    Germans with 1 or 2 Jewish grandparents on their father's side were considered Mischlinge, but were still citizens.

    more than 100,000 of them served in the Wehrmacht & Luftwaffe. This is a fact.

    A sad one, but still a fact. They could have formed an army of resistance against the Nazis, but they instead chose to be "Good Citizens". :(

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