Anti-gun backlash

This is a discussion on Anti-gun backlash within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; President Bush had a forum today on school violence. All of the national media have reported it with comments by anti-gun proponents. Do they really ...

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    Member Array Biloxi Bersa's Avatar
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    Anti-gun backlash

    President Bush had a forum today on school violence. All of the national media have reported it with comments by anti-gun proponents.

    Do they really believe a 15 year old was able to purchase an AR-15? Apparently so.

    The shooter in PA reportedly had no prior record. The shooter in WI (minor) broke into his parents' gun cabinet. The kid in MO the day before had an assult rifle, which I assume got from parent.

    They should put the parents in jail for failing to properly secure legally obtained weapons.

    And the anti-gun folks? Living in fantasy land.

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    Fantasy Land...

    Quote Originally Posted by Biloxi Bersa View Post
    President Bush had a forum today on school violence. All of the national media have reported it with comments by anti-gun proponents.

    Do they really believe a 15 year old was able to purchase an AR-15? Apparently so.

    The shooter in PA reportedly had no prior record. The shooter in WI (minor) broke into his parents' gun cabinet. The kid in MO the day before had an assult rifle, which I assume got from parent.

    They should put the parents in jail for failing to properly secure legally obtained weapons.

    And the anti-gun folks? Living in fantasy land.
    is a good place. There are no guns and everyone follows the 'law' to the letter. No one speaks harshly of another and you can actually put a $50 bill on the sidewalk and come back an hour later to retrieve it.
    Ahhhh...such a nice place! There are no weapons there because everyone has turned them ALL in. No black markets, no violence...and the news media only reports the 'facts'!
    And there are so many slow learners there too!
    I know that this is true because the voices told me so...
    (Sarcasam off...)

    Good luck to those in 'la la land'...
    Wake up America...

    Be prepared...stay safe!

    ret
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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    Hate to disagree with you, but I would hope when my kids are 15years old, I will be able to trust them with the guns. There have been many instances in which teenagers were able to defend their home because they had access to the family firearms.

    The alternative is that the parents need to know their kids. They need to know if the teen is stable/intelligent/mature enough to be able to access them. If the answer is "NO", then, of course, they should be securely locked up. If the answer is "YES" then I have no problems with teens having access to the guns. This assumes the parents are smart enough to know their kids and to know the difference.
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

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    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    I am with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperKnight View Post
    Hate to disagree with you, but I would hope when my kids are 15years old, I will be able to trust them with the guns. There have been many instances in which teenagers were able to defend their home because they had access to the family firearms.

    The alternative is that the parents need to know their kids. They need to know if the teen is stable/intelligent/mature enough to be able to access them. If the answer is "NO", then, of course, they should be securely locked up. If the answer is "YES" then I have no problems with teens having access to the guns. This assumes the parents are smart enough to know their kids and to know the difference.

    When I was real young, I had a gun cabinet in my room with my guns in it. I knew where dad's 357 was by the time I was 12, and could have and would have used it if I needed to defend our home. I hope my daughter will be able to do the same when she is a teenager.

    That being said, If your kid is NUTS then LOCK UP YOUR GUNS and get your kid some help, quick.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

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    Member Array Al.40cal's Avatar
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    Hey Copperknight and SgtD I understand what you both are saying. The parents were probably like you and your parents. They probably thought they had taught their children all they should know about handling firearms and that lead to it backfiring in their face. That is why I have strong feelings against children handling guns. Don't get me wrong there are families that consist of people who do the right thing and then there are one's like you have in these particular incidents. Kids, like adults have a million things going on in that little mind of theirs that at at any point can lead to great things or end in disaster.
    If you are comfortable that your child knows were your cache is it's fine with me. I respect every ones' ideas on who is in the know and who they want to have access to Dads' or Moms' guns. But just know this, a child is a child a should be regarded as one.
    It comes a time in your life when you run across someone you should have never @#$$% with. Allow me to introduce myself!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgtD View Post
    When I was real young, I had a gun cabinet in my room with my guns in it. I knew where dad's 357 was by the time I was 12, and could have and would have used it if I needed to defend our home. I hope my daughter will be able to do the same when she is a teenager.

    That being said, If your kid is NUTS then LOCK UP YOUR GUNS and get your kid some help, quick.
    I agree, I grew up hunting very young, shot my first deer off our front porch in grade school and had access to them if needed. My guns were not kept as a "hidden mystery" from my kids and they were familiar with them and respected them. When I got married the 2nd time her daughter, that I later adopted, had never been around guns so I showed all of them to her, let her hold them and ask any questions she wanted. That I believe took any mystery away from them and there were never any problems.

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    Distinguished Member Array 4my son's Avatar
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    I think everyone here so far has valid points,IMHO, It boils down to the relationship between parent and child, and how well the child has learned to cope with day to day life. As far as how to tell where that level of coping is, that's a tough one, but it is ultimatly the parents responsibility.

    I personally was tought to shoot a 1911 when I was around 9 or 10, ans shot every rifle and shotgun we had by the time I was 12. A lot of the guns we had were kept in my room after that, and I knew where all the rest were. When I was old enough to drive, my old Bronco had a shotgun in the back many a Friday at school if I was leaving streight from their to go hunting that Saturday. And I never gave it one thought, no matter how bad someone at school might have angered me, It never crossed my mind.

    But then that was back in the 80's, before Colombine and the other school shooting's. I can almost say for certian, that I wasn't the only one.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al.40cal View Post
    But just know this, a child is a child a should be regarded as one.
    15 is no "child". At 15, one is capable of knowing right from wrong, and recognizing (even if not properly prossessing) consequences. I would agree, though, I like the gun locker. I'm also a firm believer that if one displays a firearm, "with intent" on school grounds, one should be made DRT. 14 or 40, a one shot strike-out. I've said it before, immediate, brutal, response to violence will decrease the violence. It can be considered "romantic", or pyrrically heroic, if you're seeing a kid your age being taken away in cuffs, on national TV. The romance fades, if you're seeing a shot-up carcass, that peed and pooped itself in dying. If there are no clear consequences, the limited cost-benefit analysis ability of adolescents will always be skewed towards the dramatic, ego-enhancing and "edgy".

    I would feel for the parents of the dead, but better one than many, when the many had no choice in the matter.

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    I think it depends on the kid. I have 2 kids,a 21 yr old son,and a 15 yr old daughter.
    I have trained them both on handguns and long guns since they were small.I had planned to provide for my son to take his permit to carry training,and buy him the pistol of his choice [within reason] for his 21st birthday.Due to choices he made and actions he took, I did not feel he was mature enough or responsible enough at that age so I decided to wait.He will be 22 this Feb. and I am still evaluating.
    My 15 yr old daughter is a lot different,I expect her to be ready a couple years earlier than the law allows for and have to wait.
    My son will come around,he is now heading in the right direction,but my point is that even kids from the same family need a different set of guidelines and there is not a one size fits all solution.

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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Yes and no. I have three daughters, and my experience is much like yours. In this, however, "If you take up the mantle of a Man, you will be dealt with as a Man.......". As long as we continue with the ambiguity of the juvenile justice system with these types of offenders, we will see more of them. I don't say your child has to fall on their face, for every bad decision, but unless and until we make clear that bad "adult" choices have irreparable, irrevocable, personal consequences, we increase the number of Little Johnny Four-Eyes who will try to enhance themselves to their peers, parents, etc., with these acts.

    And, "yes, even if it was my own child". This type of barbarism destroys society.

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    New Member Array dcwn.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Yes and no. I have three daughters, and my experience is much like yours. In this, however, "If you take up the mantle of a Man, you will be dealt with as a Man.......". As long as we continue with the ambiguity of the juvenile justice system with these types of offenders, we will see more of them. I don't say your child has to fall on their face, for every bad decision, but unless and until we make clear that bad "adult" choices have irreparable, irrevocable, personal consequences, we increase the number of Little Johnny Four-Eyes who will try to enhance themselves to their peers, parents, etc., with these acts.

    And, "yes, even if it was my own child". This type of barbarism destroys society.
    HUH? I don't follow you.
    Do I think my son would go shoot up the countryside?Of course not.But he was drinking too much,had no consistent job or living arrangement,and I thought if he had a handgun he would likely sell it to "who knows" or leave it somewhere unsecured where it could fall into the hands of someone either untrained or worse.I do not think he is morally bankrupt,just sorting out his way in life with a lot less guidance from his mom and I than I would prefer.He is coming back to his senses and I expect to follow up with my plan,the timeframe is just different.
    Don't be the one they name the next gun ban after!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcwn.45 View Post
    HUH? I don't follow you.
    Do I think my son would go shoot up the countryside?Of course not.But he was drinking too much,had no consistent job or living arrangement,and I thought if he had a handgun he would likely sell it to "who knows" or leave it somewhere unsecured where it could fall into the hands of someone either untrained or worse.I do not think he is morally bankrupt,just sorting out his way in life with a lot less guidance from his mom and I than I would prefer.He is coming back to his senses and I expect to follow up with my plan,the timeframe is just different.
    I agree with you there. That's exactly what I was getting at. Whether the child (adult or kid, they are still the our "children") is dangerous, irresponsible, or just not mature enough, we need to be able, as parents, to see this and make the decision that the world is better off without our child armed; or, conversly, that our family is better off with our child having the ability to be armed. It's may be a hard decision, but I haven't found anyone yet who says parenting is easy.
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

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    Member Array hurst1911a1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    15 is no "child". At 15, one is capable of knowing right from wrong, and recognizing (even if not properly prossessing) consequences. I would agree, though, I like the gun locker. I'm also a firm believer that if one displays a firearm, "with intent" on school grounds, one should be made DRT. 14 or 40, a one shot strike-out. I've said it before, immediate, brutal, response to violence will decrease the violence. It can be considered "romantic", or pyrrically heroic, if you're seeing a kid your age being taken away in cuffs, on national TV. The romance fades, if you're seeing a shot-up carcass, that peed and pooped itself in dying. If there are no clear consequences, the limited cost-benefit analysis ability of adolescents will always be skewed towards the dramatic, ego-enhancing and "edgy".

    I would feel for the parents of the dead, but better one than many, when the many had no choice in the matter.
    right on the money, brother rob!

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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcwn.45 View Post
    Do I think my son would go shoot up the countryside?Of course not.But he was drinking too much,had no consistent job or living arrangement,and I thought if he had a handgun he would likely sell it to "who knows" or leave it somewhere unsecured where it could fall into the hands of someone either untrained or worse.
    I was agreeing with you on the parental end- the responsibility of granting "limited/unlimited access" is ours. Sometimes, regardless of our best efforts, the gates of Hades open, and Stupid rolls out, in all its splendor. Those times, a parent has to be supportive and as helpful as context will support, and hope that the lesson is learned. All kids go through a weird/alien/rebellious stage at some point- these are painful but survivable. (The quote contains a seperation that I guess was not too clear-there are "small affairs", then there are the BIGGIES)

    Conversely, if a child makes a choice beyond their capacity, with terminal consequences for someone else, frankly they need to bear that responsibility- particularly with regard to violent assault. A firearm is not a car and a couple of beers- it is a tool for distributing death. There is a conscious decision to terminate another being. This indicates 1) inappropriate anger and/or disproportionate emotion, or 2) narscissitic/sociopathic mindset. "Helplessness", or "powerlessness" do not apply to the organized behavior seen in these shootings. Inability to manage emotions may be chemically managed, and may (occassionally) be mitigated by "environment, but the self-aggrandizing nature of 99.99% of these acts demonstrate them to be incapable of societal interaction- there is no rehabilitation for these individuals.

    There is good argument that a majority of these persons were "thinned out", in earlier times, by higher infant morbidity and mortality, and by successive continental and expansional wars. (In other words, it may not be that there are proportionally more of them today, but that more survive infancy into adulthood.) A young (typically) man felt "restless"- he joined the army/navy, he went to the Colonies, etc., and "it" was either worn out of him (violent felons over age 30 are capable of the same level of violence as in their youth, but they exhibit the behavior with far less frequency, and require far more instigation), or he was killed in action. We now have "children" well over the age of 20, sheltered from typically Darwinian cures for stupidity, by both parents and the legal system. We are a "kinder" society, but hardly improved.
    Last edited by Rob72; October 12th, 2006 at 10:27 AM.

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    Ron
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    Sorry, but I have to disagree about trusting kids to be responsible about and around guns. First, there are far too many cases of otherwise good kids who did foolish things to the total dismay of their parents, like, for example taking the family car out for a ride without parental permission, or experimenting, just this one time, with drugs, etc. Peer pressure, and the human ability to rationalize away behavior, can get any kid to do something that they know they should not be doing. The other problem is that if we are talking about teens or pre-teens, they are going to have friends visiting. Having guns accessible with kids in the house is, in my opinion, a potential tragedy waiting to happen. The consequences are simply too devastating to take the chance.

    Ron

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