Now is ABSOLUTELY the time to talk about gun control!

This is a discussion on Now is ABSOLUTELY the time to talk about gun control! within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by TX expat No, trying to apply laws to those who are lawless is what is useless. Every state in the nation has ...

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Thread: Now is ABSOLUTELY the time to talk about gun control!

  1. #61
    Ex Member Array Pythius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    No, trying to apply laws to those who are lawless is what is useless. Every state in the nation has laws against murder but it doesn't stop murder; it only provides a definable method of punishing those who are caught doing that act. Firearms are completely illegal in Mexico and so only the outlaws have firearms, and for the most part, they rule the country.
    yes, murder is illegal in the USA...and yet people are still murdered.

    so you're saying we should just make murder legal, as the law against it clearly isnt a deterent?

    whether or not criminals pay attention to a law, is irrelevent as to the validity of a law.

    for example: limiting handgun purchases to one per month may not change the desire of gun runners to buy lots of guns and sell them to criminals, but it WILL prevent law-abiding FFLs from selling more than one gun per month to the gun-running buyer.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    yes, murder is illegal in the USA...and yet people are still murdered.

    so you're saying we should just make murder legal, as the law against it clearly isnt a deterent?

    whether or not criminals pay attention to a law, is irrelevent as to the validity of a law.

    for example: limiting handgun purchases to one per month may not change the desire of gun runners to buy lots of guns and sell them to criminals, but it WILL prevent law-abiding FFLs from selling more than one gun per month to the gun-running buyer.
    No, obviously I'm not suggesting that we make all things legal and there isn't a thing that I've said that would lead anyone to rationally assume that is what I'm suggesting. Someone trolling, however, might try to suggest that I'm making such an assertion...

    However, if you understand that criminals won't pay attention to laws, what purpose does it serve to place additional laws on law abiding citizens? To use your example, if you limit all handgun purchases to one per month, you'll just drive 'gun runners' to other illegal activities like stealing (which is also universally illegal, by the way) firearms from individuals and dealers. It won't stop, or even significantly hinder, the criminals who ultimately acquire the firearms. Once again, Mexico is riddled with guns and gun violence and firearms are completely illegal. I suppose that's our fault too?
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  4. #63
    Senior Member Array Darrow75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    for example: limiting handgun purchases to one per month may not change the desire of gun runners to buy lots of guns and sell them to criminals, but it WILL prevent law-abiding FFLs from selling more than one gun per month to the gun-running buyer.
    We're back to this argument again are we? It would not prevent the gun-running buyer from hiring 50 or 100 guys to each purchase 1 gun a piece for him once a month. Sure, it would cost him more on the front end to hire these guys but he can just charge more to the end user. It's an illegal sale anyway...they are going to pay the prices the gun-runner dictates. It's not like they can go over to gun-runners.com to do some competitive price shopping.

  5. #64
    Ex Member Array Pythius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrow75 View Post
    We're back to this argument again are we? It would not prevent the gun-running buyer from hiring 50 or 100 guys to each purchase 1 gun a piece for him once a month.....
    this is a strawman argument.

    hiring 50 guys to buy 50 guns each month, would destroy his profit margins from the future gun-sales.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    this is a strawman argument.

    hiring 50 guys to buy 50 guns each month, would destroy his profit margins from the future gun-sales.
    Not at all, it would simply increase the street value. Criminals acquiring weapons aren't saving up their hard earned dollars in interest bearing accounts until they can afford their desired weapon, that's what law abiding folks do. Criminals will just increase their revenue production to match their economic environment.
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  7. #66
    Senior Member Array Darrow75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    this is a strawman argument.

    hiring 50 guys to buy 50 guns each month, would destroy his profit margins from the future gun-sales.
    BS and you know it. He can charge whatever he wants to the end user as they want the guns and don't have a whole lot of other options to procure them...did you not bother to read the rest of my post or do you not understand the basic concept of supply and demand?

  8. #67
    Member Array KoolBreeze's Avatar
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    How would limiting handgun purchases to 1 per month have prevented the tragedy in Newtown from occurring? Why not take steps to prevent such as this from happening instead of writing laws that do nothing of the sort?

    Here is an idea. How about posting duly sworn policemen at schools to secure them? You could use some of the money spent on administration of the school district to fund it. Yeah, the lowlife would just pick an easier target and carry on, but be that as it may, it could have saved the lives of some these children.

  9. #68
    Senior Member Array Darrow75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoolBreeze View Post
    How would limiting handgun purchases to 1 per month have prevented the tragedy in Newtown from occurring? Why not take steps to prevent such as this from happening instead of writing laws that do nothing of the sort?

    Here is an idea. How about posting duly sworn policemen at schools to secure them? You could use some of the money spent on administration of the school district to fund it. Yeah, the lowlife would just pick an easier target and carry on, but be that as it may, it could have saved the lives of some these children.
    It wouldn't...it's just Pythius' favorite form of "common sense" gun control measures.
    Last edited by Darrow75; December 16th, 2012 at 12:46 PM. Reason: Stupid auto correct!

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoolBreeze View Post
    How would limiting handgun purchases to 1 per month have prevented the tragedy in Newtown from occurring?
    It wouldn't have stopped that one, or any other that involves theft or robbery of others' things.

    Why not take steps to prevent such as this from happening instead of writing laws that do nothing of the sort?
    Crime is so varied that a range of elements are needed for any solution. Just so long as the elements are practical, effective and lawful (Constitutional), I've generally got no problem with cracking down hard on all aspects ... availability of weaponry by criminals, identifying criminality earlier, hardening facilities, redesigning key facilities (ie, K12 schools) to have tougher-to-enter single entry points, hardening procedures, etc. The key IMO is, practical, effective and lawful.
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  11. #70
    Ex Member Array Pythius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoolBreeze View Post
    How would limiting handgun purchases to 1 per month have prevented the tragedy in Newtown from occurring?....
    I never said it would.

  12. #71
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    I saw a good movie last night, The Hobbit: An Unexpected Adventure. Gandalf has a great line. While looking for the exact quote, I found another interesting quote from reviewer, and, of course poet, WH Auden. Here are both for your consideration.
    ...Evil has every advantage but one; it is inferior in imagination. Good can imagine the possibility of becoming evil-hence the refusal of Gandalf and Aragorn to use the Ring; but Evil, defiantly chosen, can no longer imagine anything but itself. -W.H. Auden, reviewing The Lord of the Rings for "The New York Times" in 1956

    “Saruman believes it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.”
    -Gandalf the Gray in The Hobbit.
    The author of both works is, of course, JRR Tolkien.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    I saw a good movie last night, The Hobbit: An Unexpected Adventure. Gandalf has a great line. While looking for the exact quote, I found another interesting quote from reviewer, and, of course poet, WH Auden. Here are both for your consideration.
    The author of both works is, of course, JRR Tolkien.
    In post 71 immediately above, Pistology posted this Tolkien quote: "Evil has every advantage but one; it is inferior in imagination."

    I dunno. It seems to me the BGs are often pretty darn imaginative; whether its the paroled sex offender
    who managed to hide a girl turned woman over time in his back yard undetected by probation officers who visit,
    the Smart girl's kindapper, the shoe bomber, or the 9/11 perps. All were pretty imaginative.

    IMO it is us good guys who lack the imagination necessary to foresee the manner in which bad people will act out or imagine all
    the ways they will act out. (I'm avoiding the use of the
    word evil because that can degenerate to a religious theme--as "the devil made him do it.") Who would have been
    imaginative enough to anticipate a Jeffrey Cannibal Dahmer, a Wayne Gacy (Sp??), a Manson, or a BTK.

    Who really ever imagined (before the fact) that a sick person would come and murder little children in
    an elementary school. I have a feeling that every day when the teachers and parents and kids were
    delayed and annoyed by whatever security features the school had, they NEVER in their hearts believed they were doing
    anything but throwing money away on security theater--- which is what it turned out to be.
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  14. #73
    Member Array Illusive Man's Avatar
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    When I heard the news, I went and got my Grandkids from school and spend the day with them. I love them so much and this tragedy made my heart go out to the victims and families, and to treasure every day with mine!
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  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    IMO it is us good guys who lack the imagination necessary to foresee the manner in which bad people will act out or imagine all the ways they will act out....
    Who really ever imagined (before the fact) that a sick person would come and murder little children in
    an elementary school. I have a feeling that every day when the teachers and parents and kids were
    delayed and annoyed by whatever security features the school had, they NEVER in their hearts believed they were doing anything but throwing money away on security theater--- which is what it turned out to be.
    I think we may be on the same page: if we think that, in our reaction to our fear and revulsion, laws that have ramifications over the daily activities of the mass public can prevent a defiant choice of evil, then we are only fooling ourselves. It is better to take effective measures on the individual level. Bottom line is that the individual is in the best position to empower himself.
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    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  16. #75
    VIP Member Array 1MoreGoodGuy's Avatar
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    Gun control, gun bans, equipment bans coming soon...

    California Sen. Dianne Feinstein said she will introduce a bill on the first day Congress returns in January to ban the sale of so-called “assault weapons” and high-capacity ammunition clips.

    “I’m going to introduce it in the Senate, and the same bill will be introduced in the House,” Feinstein said on NBC’s “Meet the Press.”

    Feinstein leads Democratic senators in call to renew gun debate, vows legislation | Fox News
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