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Sandy Hook is not about a need for gun control

This is a discussion on Sandy Hook is not about a need for gun control within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by bigmacque The core of the Sandy Hook situation is not about gun control. but as long as we pro-gun rights folks keep ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmacque View Post
    The core of the Sandy Hook situation is not about gun control. but as long as we pro-gun rights folks keep demanding that there be no more laws, and pushing inflammatory responses about good guys with guns stopping bad guys with guns -- who wants to see the old west in every street in America? no one, not one of us -- but as long as our side of the fight keeps pushing back with inflammatory stuff, no one will get to the core of the problem.


    But as long as both sides ratchet up the rhetoric, and the debate is fueled by things like the deaths of 20 innocent elementary school children, we will be on the losing side of the yelling and fighting.
    I'd suggest we stop yelling and fighting.



    I say dial down the rhetoric and start offering positive, measureable and effective solutions to the problems, not fight about whether they're going to take our guns away.
    Dispensing with belligerence and bombast at this time is probably advisable. We've surely lost big time in the courts of public opinion. A bit of diplomacy and some sensitivity might be needed to slow the hemorrhage and the way it looks now sacrificing a pawn or two in the game is going to be inevitable. It’ll be about damage control.
    Last edited by wmhawth; December 17th, 2012 at 11:14 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  2. #17
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    Listen to yourselves.
    Some of you have already given up. If some of the posts on the various gunboards are any indication of the future of gun ownership in America...then we are screwed.

    First of all, we as gun owner do NOT have to apologize for anything.
    We do not have to feel "ashamed" for the acts of a mad man that happened to use guns as a tool to do some killing.
    We do not have to "compromise,have a meaningful dialog,try to make "sense" out a of situation where there is none,or even take one spec of blame for the fact that we own guns.
    Emotion is going to be used to pass some knee jerk legislation that will effect every single person in this country at it will all be done in the name of peace and safety...just like it always is.
    As for the "court of public opinion" that is upheld by socialists and liberals, I could really care less what they think, because they are fools and I have a habit of ignoring the suggestions of fools.

    We have an Administration that will stop at nothing to disarm up and the fact that this crisis will be used as well as any other to disarm us, one class of gun at a time is to be expected.

    The rhetoric by a socialist news media is not to be wondered or marveled at, it is to be expected.

    As for the weapons used...it doesn't matter. If it were a single shot derringer used to kill everyone there, the push for "meaningful" gun control would still be as evident.

    Blaming the NRA,the mans mother,the fact that he was physco...none of it matters. The only "blame" to be assigned is to the guy that did the killing.

    So lets quit apologizing for something that we didn't do and stand fast on the gun ownership issue as much as we possibly can, for our selves, our children and our grand children because if we do not, then we will lose to right to own anything piece by piece, one step at a time and every horrific event from here on out will be used to do it. History proves it.

    Quit whining and quit offering up your guns as a compromise to people that could care less. Don't play their game. Quit giving in for the "children" and put away such foolishness and above all quit playing into the hands of people that hate this country and everything that it stands for.

    If you want to moan and groan and claim gloom and agony, then do it about the target rich environments that we intentionally set up so that a shooter or anyone else that wants to murder can do so unhindered. Lament the fact that we have teachers that would have access to arms if they could and would choose to do so if it were legal. Acknowledge the fact that gun free zones are nothing more than compromises for people that dont understand evil or how it works. Know and undertand that doing nothing in the face of evil only creats more evil. Call on your Congressmen,Senators,Govenors and anyone else that will listen to quit hamstringing us an give us the ability to at least fight back.

    Focus your efforts in a way that can be used for good not the compromise that the touchy feely types expect when things dont go their way. Above all...quit listening to the talking heads, because precious few have a clue of reality. They live in a make beleive world and listening to their chatter will only rot your brain.
    KBSR, OD*, phreddy and 2 others like this.
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  3. #18
    Member Array Bill340's Avatar
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    Killing people is a moral problem not a societal problem. There are few people who want to talk about morality these days. It’s no wonder that there are no longer any moral taboos. What was considered immoral 40 years ago is being made formally legal today by voters, legislators, and our courts. I believe there is a relationship between “defining deviancy down” and an increase in the disregard for other people. An uptick in ‘Moral Misfits‘ is the result.

    The usual suspects are out in force calling for additional gun-control measures. School children are most vulnerable to gun violence. They can’t defend themselves, and neither can the teachers. Schools are “Gun Free Zones,” but only for the law abiding. Criminals don’t care about gun laws; that’s why they’re criminals.

    Thieves don’t care about laws against theft, and rapists don’t care about laws against rape. The same is true about drinking and driving. We’ve just had a high profile drunk driving arrest. “Dallas Cowboys nose tackle Josh Price-Brent was arrested early Saturday morning [December 8, 2012] on intoxication manslaughter charges involving a car accident that killed teammate Jerry Brown.”

    Laws won’t stop people intent on doing harm.

    So what do the law-abiding citizens do? They arm themselves just like they would in war. There are terror insurgents in the United States hell-bent on destroying others. That’s a fact.

    Just the other day a young woman was murdered when she told three teenage thugs to “get a job.”

    More people are killed in the United States through violent means than are killed in our current foreign wars. In March of this year, violence in Chicago had left 52 people dead – more than twice as many as died in the March of 2011. There were 39 Coalition Military Fatalities in Afghanistan during the same month.

    Schools should immediately develop a program where every teacher is trained in how to handle a firearm. All teachers must comply to get hired. If Israel can do it, why not America? Larry Pratt of Gun Owners of America wrote the following in 2008: “In the mid-seventies, a terrorist attacked an Israeli school bus, murdering over 30 children. . . . A majority of Israelis . . . found a compelling reason for putting guns in schools — terrorists would get guns whether Jews were armed or not. As a result, schools in border areas, and school buses, were manned with gun-toting teachers or others assigned to be at the ready.”

    Signs should be posted around the school that read:

    “The teachers and administrators of this school are armed and trained in deadly force. Anybody attempting to enter the school intending to do harm will be shot on sight.”

    Instead, if a student draws what looks like a gun, he’ll be suspended for ten days.

    And what should we do with those who are involved in a murder spree? They should be executed. The man who shot and killed a number of people at Gabrielle Gifford’s campaign rally and the man who killed the people in the movie theater are still alive.

    There is no doubt that these men killed these people. Their mental state, either before or after the shootings, is irrelevant. They should be dead by now.

    We need some public executions to send a message.

    Let’s stop blaming law-abiding citizens and go after the criminals.
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  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    I'm not offering up my guns or giving up the fight, I'm suggesting a new way to fight this fight: by not playing the same game that the anti-'s are playing. They keep pushing inflammatory remarks about guns, biased journalism and doing everything they can to win the court of public opinion. I'm suggesting we change the playing field, go on the offensive from an entirely different perspective, and pro-actively get in the debate on how to prevent things like this from happening in the future.

    Lost in the remarks so far is one of my call's to response: have you heard of any productive counter-solutions? Can we get enough counter-solutions at an open discussion table that we can get a handle on the real problem, the control of the people that should not have guns, without giving up any of our rights to bear arms?

    Remember: until Friday Lanza was a law-abiding citizen. He didn't acquire guns illegally, other than stealing them from the mother that took him shooting with those same weapons. I keep seeing and hearing all of these pro-gun folks yelling things like "criminals don't obey laws, so no new laws will help", or "law-abiding citizens should have the right to arms." Lanza and his mother fit the profile of people that we keep saying should be allowed to have guns. We're going to lose that fight if we keep trying to fight it on their terms.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
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  5. #20
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    We're going to lose that fight if we keep trying to fight it on their terms.
    Exactly.

    We dont have to take their "terms"

    You dont win a battle by playing their hand, you win it by making them play yours.

    As for the crazies, figure out who they are and when they are going to snap and you will get rich.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  6. #21
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    Honestly, there really is no true right to bear arms in this country right now and there hasn't been for a long time. The Federal government has maintained a massive standing military since the "Selective Service Act" was passed to get us into WWI. That standing military has continued to grow and has the ability to completely destroy any citizens' militia that stands in the way of the government doing anything. I like to think that it won't get to that point during my lifetime, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

  7. #22
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    HotGuns...great posts! We are fighting one battle in a war that has raged since the 1934 GCA. Never give in or engage on their terms. Get off the X and take the fight to them.
    [T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people. ---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array DocT65's Avatar
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    Everyone remotely involved in this tragedy....media, politicians, first responders, families, citizens close to the area....are all acting in the realm of extreme emotion right now, and understandably so. There are those, however, that have seized upon this horrific event to use it as a political club to advance their longstanding, liberal, anti-gun agenda. I speak specifically to the likes of Feinstein, Bloomberg and even Obama. It is truly disgusting to witness this, even before the first victim is laid to rest.

    This is not a gun issue. It is a societal issue. Anyone rememeber Oklahoma City? The events of 09/11? Thousands killed, not a gun in sight. The crazies who seek to commit mass murder will always have tools at their disposal to accomplish their sick plans, guns or no guns. The bigger picture is what has changed in U.S. society and how do we as a nation effectively address the root cause of this behavior. In nations such as Switzerland, every household has a gun (most are military weapons), yet you don't hear of this type of behavior. Blaming guns for this problem is like blaming cars for DUI's.

    What to do?..... 1. Well, if you are not already, join the NRA. They have an even bigger fight on their hands now. 2. Write your Representatives and Senators....TODAY!

    We can only hope that there is time for everyone to get through the coming weeks and that this is approached and analyzed by cooler-headed, thinking minds truly seeking a solution to violent behavior rather than reaction-thinking, short sighted individuals with a political agenda to destroy the Second Amendment. You cannot legislate sanity.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocT65 View Post
    Everyone remotely involved in this tragedy....media, politicians, first responders, families, citizens close to the area....are all acting in the realm of extreme emotion right now, and understandably so. There are those, however, that have seized upon this horrific event to use it as a political club to advance their longstanding, liberal, anti-gun agenda. I speak specifically to the likes of Feinstein, Bloomberg and even Obama. It is truly disgusting to witness this, even before the first victim is laid to rest.

    This is not a gun issue. It is a societal issue. Anyone rememeber Oklahoma City? The events of 09/11? Thousands killed, not a gun in sight. The crazies who seek to commit mass murder will always have tools at their disposal to accomplish their sick plans, guns or no guns. The bigger picture is what has changed in U.S. society and how do we as a nation effectively address the root cause of this behavior. In nations such as Switzerland, every household has a gun (most are military weapons), yet you don't hear of this type of behavior. Blaming guns for this problem is like blaming cars for DUI's.

    What to do?..... 1. Well, if you are not already, join the NRA. They have an even bigger fight on their hands now. 2. Write your Representatives and Senators....TODAY!

    We can only hope that there is time for everyone to get through the coming weeks and that this is approached and analyzed by cooler-headed, thinking minds truly seeking a solution to violent behavior rather than reaction-thinking, short sighted individuals with a political agenda to destroy the Second Amendment. You cannot legislate sanity.
    Just my opinion here, but I think my money would be better if it was donated to the Cato Institute. The NRA protects and supports the firearm manufacturers, not the firearm owners.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array DocT65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steffen View Post
    Just my opinion here, but I think my money would be better if it was donated to the Cato Institute. The NRA protects and supports the firearm manufacturers, not the firearm owners.
    Cato is fine, but I disagree with you on the NRA......but, even if what you say is true, would you not agree tha sweeping changes to the 2A will ultimately translate into a shattered firearms idustry? Support the NRA.
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  11. #26
    Senior Member Array KBSR's Avatar
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    I appreciate your post Sir, and would like to believe that your proposal of having sensible people come to the table to talk reasonably would produce favorable results. Unfortunately, I live in the real world, and I don't for one second think that the people on the other side actually want to solve the problem. Their agenda is restricting all firearms, period. That's their objective, and they won't be happy until we've completely surrendered. I for one am not prepared to surrender or retreat.

    Don't forget, this is the same administration that allowed the Fast & Furious gun running operation to arm the deadly Mexican drug cartels. I honestly believe that the real motive for that botched operation was to sway American public opinion against our 2nd amendment rights, by demonstrating that all of those evil guns came from America, so we must tighten up our laws to prevent it from happening again. How, can anyone trust these people to do the right thing? If I'm missing something here, I'm willing to listen, but I've followed it all pretty closely and I think I know the facts, at least those that haven't been hidden by the corrupt Department of Justice. I don't yet know for certain that the POTUS knew and approved, but I'm certain that the AG did, and those two are connected at the hip.

    I've spent my time on this board, not whining and/or screaming, but offering what I believe to be substantive ideas which if implemented would help prevent tragedies like the one at Sandy Hook Elementary School. I've authored letters to my two Senators and one Congressman, stating my firm opposition to more meaningless laws related to gun control. It's not the gun (tool), it's the evil or mentally defective, that's the problem. Deal with the facts, not feel good legislation.

    Again, I appreciate your call for calm and reason, and I hope it happens. Just not very optimistic. Be safe.
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  12. #27
    Senior Member Array DocT65's Avatar
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    I agree, and I think you have restated the same sentiments that I just did......I realize the Administration we are up against, ergo the recommendation to act by supporting the most powerful pro-gun lobby and your representatives in government. That's about all we can do right now until the other side begins to act, most likely through the unconstitutional act of Executive Orders.
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  13. #28
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    Much of what we're all up against, as a People, is that folks don't listen well. Listening has become overrated, in many people's lives. In fact, obviously, it's crucial in order to be effective at most anything.

    Example: Consider the statement that is often made, that "What's the point of new 'gun' laws, when criminals don't follow the existing laws anyway?" What is often heard instead is that "Since criminals won't follow laws anyway, there's no point in having any 'gun' laws; such people essentially are promoting anarchy."

    Believe it or not, I heard pretty much these words on a news radio broadcast today. Happened to be NPR, in which a panel of speakers was being queried, along with taking phone-in calls.

    NOBODY I know advocates true anarchy, or living without appropriate and effective laws against legitimate crimes and violence. I've seen NO posts or comments anywhere (other than a handful of truly murderous statements here and there by the rare, criminal few) advocating no laws. And yet, when such supposedly-innocuous phrases are taken to be gurgling "along the party line," it is very likely to be taken completely differently by the ones hearing the words.

    Something to keep in mind, when we're stating our opinions and positions on various issues. Keep in mind who the audience is. Hint: it's not us, here on DC, really; rather, it's the world out there who are hearing (though, perhaps not really listening) to our words. Of course, it goes both ways. And I'm guilty as anyone else.

    Thanks for the reminder, bigmaque.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; December 17th, 2012 at 02:05 PM.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocT65 View Post
    Cato is fine, but I disagree with you on the NRA......but, even if what you say is true, would you not agree tha sweeping changes to the 2A will ultimately translate into a shattered firearms idustry? Support the NRA.
    To take my point further, the NRA supports representatives who support the PATRIOT Act and the NDAA from 2011, therefor the NRA does not support Liberty and I won't support the NRA. I think they are pulling off a pretty good con game and it is just resulting in more control for the government.

  15. #30
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    IMO, America already HAS reasonable gun control laws.

    there are some anti-gun folks whose goal is a total ban on firearms of every type. no matter what new laws are passed, or how poorly they work, 'they' will always advocate for 'more'. there can be no compromise or reasonable accommodation with such people.

    while i dislike much of the doomsday posturing that the NRA does, i agree with their opposition to new regulations, most of which will do nothing to lower gun violence, but are designed only to make it more difficult and expensive for law-abiding people to own guns.

    if someone actually does come up ideas that might reduce gun crimes without seriously abridging our civil rights, i will support them.

    but to pass useless laws just to be seen as 'doing something', is stupid, and the NRA and all pro-gun groups should oppose this. assault weapon bans, magazine capacity restrictions, micro-stamping, smart-gun technology - these would do nothing, IMO, to stop or even slow, criminal gun violence.

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