More guns, more gun deaths - Page 3

More guns, more gun deaths

This is a discussion on More guns, more gun deaths within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Show me total population of each country, not gun ownership per 100. Then chart it....

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Thread: More guns, more gun deaths

  1. #31
    Ex Member Array Piratesailor's Avatar
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    Show me total population of each country, not gun ownership per 100. Then chart it.


  2. #32
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    This may be extremely calous, but it is also true: There is a price to freedom.

    Our founders were very smart and thoughtfull people. They knew that there are costs involved with a free society. Freedom means that people are free to make their own bad choices. I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who said those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.
    Walk softly ...

  3. #33
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    Protection... by death. Don't get me wrong. It's a protection I want to have and that I think we should continue to have.
    Factoid: The drawing/presentation of a firearm has stop more violent assaults from happening than the actual firing or discharge of a firearm! Can we say deterrant!

    You may wish to read "Tough Targets" from CATO books.

    As a concealed carry individual, I DO NOT SHOOT TO KILL, I shoot to stop the deadly force assault/attack! We can only present and use a firearm in defense when triad of AOJ are present!

    You'll need to develop your skills not only as a firearm owner but as a debater! As a firearm owner you'll need to become a Master of both!

    Note, I'm still in training on both!


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  4. #34
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piratesailor View Post
    Show me total population of each country, not gun ownership per 100. Then chart it.
    Chart what? I still don't understand what you're getting at. Gun deaths per capita? Those data are already shown in the chart. What do you expect to come out differently depending on how the data are plotted?

  5. #35
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    Factoid: The drawing/presentation of a firearm has stop more violent assaults from happening than the actual firing or discharge of a firearm! Can we say deterrant!
    I know that, and that is one study that has been challenged on multiple fronts. I think it's nevertheless mostly valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    Note, I'm still in training on both!
    Indeed. Factoid: "A factoid is a questionable or spurious (unverified, false, or fabricated) statement presented as a fact, but with no veracity." -- Wikipedia

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array GeorgiaDawg's Avatar
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    The reason why firearms are protected by the 2nd Amendment is not for sport, hunting, or even self-defense against muggers and robbers. The reason why firearms are protected is so that the people have means to overthrow a tyrannical government. The price of freedom is very high, and the founders knew this well. We see this price every day when people abuse this freedom, but as has been pointed out, those who would trade freedom (from a tyrannical government) for safety deserve neither freedom nor safety. More gun deaths is the result of having more guns, but evil people will find ways to kill others. Deaths produced by firearms are an unfortunate consequence of having the freedom to defend ourselves as a country from a government that may wish to enslave us.

    Yes, the primary purpose of a gun is to kill or do harm. I would say that the purpose does not matter. Who complains about guns that aren't used for illegal purposes? No one. The outcry comes when guns are used to commit crimes. Therefore, the difference is not in the purpose of a gun, but the purpose behind the person using a gun. The purpose of a gun, therefore, is irrelevant.
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

    “The purpose of the law is not to prevent a future offense, but to punish the one actually committed” - Ayn Rand

  7. #37
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaDawg View Post
    The purpose of a gun, therefore, is irrelevant.
    It's only relevant when you say, "cars/drunk drivers/whatever kill far more people than guns, but we don't ban them!"

  8. #38
    Ex Member Array Piratesailor's Avatar
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    If you do the chart by total population, you will see all the countries lumped together except for a few outliers. It's a straight line equation.

    Ok, so I have to actually work... Good thread that did stir conversation and i appreciate where you were going and what you're trying to say.

    The only think I'll add is that no matter what statistic is brought up you CANNOT compare America to any other country. We were founded differently, the population is different and the economy is different than just about every country in the world if not every country.

    It an old argument regarding the use of EU laws in the US. We are not the EU and never would be. We ARE unique.

    The comparisons therefore don't hold up.

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    I'm also willing to bet that there are more deaths by machete in the Dominican Republic than in the U.S.
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  10. #40
    Ex Member Array Piratesailor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    It's only relevant when you say, "cars/drunk drivers/whatever kill far more people than guns, but we don't ban them!"
    And that is why this is all so stupid and our government is also so stupid, not to mention corrupt.

    So why don't we ban cars, drinking and all the rest that kill many many more than guns? Of all the homicides last year, less than 300 were by rifle yet that is what will get banned. Stupid as usual. Baseball bats were one if the top assault weapons used in assaults and murders. Let's ban them too.

    We are arguing about the government and politics and knee jerk reactions. You can't do it; it's a nonsensical argument

    As I have said, a government that wants to disarm its population is a government to be feared.

  11. #41
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piratesailor View Post
    If you do the chart by total population, you will see all the countries lumped together except for a few outliers. It's a straight line equation.
    I'm sorry but I still have no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps someone less daft than me can understand and spell it out for me.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piratesailor View Post
    There is an old saying

    Statistics lie and liars statistic. Our government is a great example.

    Not directed at you OP, just an observation that anyone can come up with any statistic to make their point. I appreciate your efforts.
    I think it's "Figures Lie, and Liars Figure..."
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  13. #43
    Senior Member Array GeorgiaDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    It's only relevant when you say, "cars/drunk drivers/whatever kill far more people than guns, but we don't ban them!"
    I don't think it's relevant at all, regardless of if others are talking about cars or drunk drivers or anything else.

    See, the "purpose" of a gun or a car or a can of beer doesn't matter if it isn't used as intended, or if it is abused, or if it is used for good or evil purposes. Like statistics, the context is important and interpretation necessary. A gun is neither good nor evil, regardless of why it was invented or what some people do with it. Same for a car, or a can of beer. A car that sits in a garage doesn't kill. A beer that sits on a shelf doesn't get anyone drunk. A gun that sits in a safe or in a holster doesn't kill anyone. These are all things that can be used for good, evil, or something neutral.

    What is the difference between a gun used to kill children and a gun used to save children? The user. It is the same as a car that drives someone to work so bills can be paid and a car that plows through a crowd of people or a car that hits another car head on in a drunk driving accident. The purpose of a car doesn't matter if it is used incorrectly by the user.

    No, the purpose of a gun doesn't matter, regardless of what others compare it to. It is the user and his/her intent that matters.
    Last edited by GeorgiaDawg; December 18th, 2012 at 03:27 PM.
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    “The purpose of the law is not to prevent a future offense, but to punish the one actually committed” - Ayn Rand

  14. #44
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    Indeed. Factoid: "A factoid is a questionable or spurious (unverified, false, or fabricated) statement presented as a fact, but with no veracity." -- Wikipedia
    Please use a dictionary not a Factoid BS Site:

    Dictionary.com defines Factoid as:

    fac·toid/ˈfæk tɔɪd/ Spelled [fak-toid]

    noun

    1. an insignificant or trivial fact.
    2. something fictitious or unsubstantiated that is presented as fact, devised especially to gain publicity and accepted because of constant repetition

    I used "Factoid" as the first definition and Wikipedia publishes under the second definition.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    I'm a scientifically-minded person, and it is an empirical fact that countries with more guns per capita have more gun deaths per capita, with the exception of Mexico. This makes sense to me. More guns around means more available to criminals (via theft), and more available to law-abiding citizens that turn criminal.

    I'm a believer in the importance of the second amendment, and I don't think we need to revise it, but a lot of smart people whose opinions I generally respect do feel that way.

    Is the higher rate of gun deaths simply the price we must pay for this freedom? Is it due to the gang violence in America that the numbers are so high? I'm looking for a way to understand this that will make an argument to rational people that we should not in fact infringe the second amendment, based on the desire for a society with less gun violence, not because it's written in the constitution. Am I looking in vain?

    I understand based on what has happened in the UK since their handgun ban that such bans are not effective, and I'm quick to point that out to skeptics, but what about the argument that we shouldn't have the guns and the violence in the first place? Is there anything beside "look at the Bill of Rights" that can even be said, empirically, to such criticisms?
    I do not approach the discussion with empirical data. Instead, I believe self defense is a natural right. I also believe the second amendment is based, in part, on a recognition of this natural right.
    CIBMike likes this.

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