More guns, more gun deaths - Page 5

More guns, more gun deaths

This is a discussion on More guns, more gun deaths within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by brocktice Originally Posted by ccw9mm I have yet to see an intelligent argument as to how "softening" a target can result in ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    I have yet to see an intelligent argument as to how "softening" a target can result in it being tougher to take down that target.
    I'm sorry, can you explain what you mean?
    A soft target's easier to take down. Eliminating or dramatically curtailing a person's strength through arms is a recipe for failing to survive attack.

    A harder target's tougher. Being armed strengthens one ability to survive attack.

    IOW: armed or unarmed in a "lion's cage": which would a person prefer, assuming surviving is the desirable outcome? It is, when it comes right down to it, that simple. Viewed this way, those who would dare disarm victims beforehand are, in so many words, preferring they fail to survive violent criminal attack via the choices they're making to disarm them.
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    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  2. #62
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: More guns, more gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    Why the hyper focus on gun related death?
    Because this is one of the discussions that I have been dragged into by people who don't understand why we feel the way we do about the second amendment.

  3. #63
    Member Array mkphillips's Avatar
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    What about Switzerland? I do think you may need to check your facts.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Array medmunds21's Avatar
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    Change will be forthcoming & needed as long as it is sensible. There is a mental health issue that the government/states is ignoring due to omitting their cutbacks!
    "A free man is he who does not fear to go to the end of his thought."

  5. #65
    RAL
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    Statistics mean nothing, because they can never show the number of times a gun was used to stop a crime from being committed. I would postulate that most of these instances are never reported.

    The number of times a gun is pulled by a LEO or CC holder, and the BG drops their weapon, is not in the statistics shown. The number of times a person under a RO decides NOT to approach the person they have been stalking, because they know the 'I'm-not-a-victim' is now carrying, will never be shown.

    The presence of guns in our society stops a lot of crimes from being committed. I would further postulate that if the United States had more armed/trained citizens, the crime rate would drop dramatically. Right now it is a guessing game for the criminal to choose who should be the 'victim' UNLESS it is a GUN FREE ZONE. Then it's a SHOOTING GALLERY.

    Law enforcement comes AFTER they have been made aware of a problem which can take a while. I would rather be my own First Responder. Most of us and our actions will never show up in statistics.


    If you want statistics, check out Australia and their crime rates after they banned guns.

    Also, anyone who would believe Mexico’s gun statistics should not be allowed to speak about statistics.
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  6. #66
    New Member Array BHOWPE's Avatar
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    The only statistic you need to know is that it took first responders "about 20 minutes" to arrive at Sandy Hook Elementary after the first 911 call. 20 minutes to arrive at an elementary school with an active shooter located 2 miles from a maximum security prison. I believe the final record will show that first responders saved very few, if any, potential victims. How fast do you think they will arrive at your house when your front door is broken down at 3:30 a.m.?

    When seconds count, police are minutes (maybe even 20 minutes) away. That is why we need to protect our 2A rights with every means necessary.

  7. #67
    Member Array ElArdilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BHOWPE View Post
    The only statistic you need to know is that it took first responders "about 20 minutes" to arrive at Sandy Hook Elementary after the first 911 call. 20 minutes to arrive at an elementary school with an active shooter located 2 miles from a maximum security prison. I believe the final record will show that first responders saved very few, if any, potential victims. How fast do you think they will arrive at your house when your front door is broken down at 3:30 a.m.?

    When seconds count, police are minutes (maybe even 20 minutes) away. That is why we need to protect our 2A rights with every means necessary.
    Awesome response. As someone who has also been unwillingly dragged into these arguments recently I agree with you totally. I have resorted to telling people that I don't what the national solution is, but I know what mine is. I can draw and place 3 shots on my target at "across movie theater" distances in 2 seconds flat. This won't end all violence, when the time comes to attack I will be as violent as I can. At the end of the day myself, my girlfriend, my family and loved ones will be going home. Is this violent? Yes. Is it wrong? That depends on the person. They can argue with me with me all they want because I'll still be alive.

  8. #68
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: More guns, more gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RAL View Post
    Also, anyone who would believe Mexico’s gun statistics should not be allowed to speak about statistics.[/COLOR]
    They show an extremely high rate of gun violence relative to the population and number of guns. Is that wrong?

  9. #69
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: More guns, more gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by BHOWPE View Post
    When seconds count, police are minutes (maybe even 20 minutes) away. That is why we need to protect our 2A rights with every means necessary.
    Where I live it could easily be an hour.

  10. #70
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    Statistics can be part of the problem. Whatever side you are on, will come up with some type of statistics to prove their point. Why?? Because people have a political agenda and will come up with any data necessary to win their point over others. The human mind and culture is really our issue. Not guns, not bombs, not knives, it's the people who use them without any thought about others. They frankly don't care anymore. You add the mental cases, gangs, drug cartels, and all of this to the mix and look what we have. Look at prison, they don't have guns but prison is one of the most violent places on earth. Killing and rapes all the time. It's all about power and the bad guys know this. So do our politicians. It's not whats best for all of us, it's about their agenda. Banning guns will just cause more problems. Example, What about the gangs in Mexico? They are coming over to USA now at a alarming rate. What do you think the drug lords would do if they knew we had no way to protect ourselves. If I was them I know, I would expand my area into the good old USA. Heck, they are doing this now. Anyway, don't mean to get off subject but, statistics won't help you with the type of people we are dealing with. They simply don't care.
    Last edited by sud123; December 19th, 2012 at 01:23 AM. Reason: redone

  11. #71
    Senior Member Array Jemsaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    Originally Posted by zacii
    Why the hyper focus on gun related death?
    Because this is one of the discussions that I have been dragged into by people who don't understand why we feel the way we do about the second amendment.
    Interesting. I had this exact same discussion a couple days ago. Well, not really a discussion. Someone posted this chart on Gun-related deaths, and then asked me to explain it.

    Here was my response.

    ALright - I just lost a large post concerning the map. I'll try to write what I said, but it won't have the links or the specifics that I had last time (I'm not looking all that up again!). In short:

    1. The map fails to include a number of countries that should be on it. South Africa for instance, has a justice system and a GDP that equals or betters quite a few in Europe. It is, for all intents and purposes here, a first world country. It's murder by gun rate is 10 times that of the US in Gun Murder per 100,000 people stats. Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, the Ukraine (and a couple others, if I remember right) are all European, and except for 70 years of USSR rule, have the same internal structures and overarching European culture-that is why they were considered 2nd world as opposed to 1st world (US-USSR, both first world type entities). Yet, none of them are on the list either. That tells me that this chart is made out of bias to illustrate a pre-designed opinion. As such, it isn't "data." It's biased presentation.

    2a. Here's where my loss of the other post really hurts. Anyway, the writeup underneath the chart also says that Mexico is not included because of the death from the drug war. Alright, but then why are we including the death from the drug war that's spilling into the US? First, California has the highest death by gun rate in the US. It also has the strictest gun control. Texas has the second highest death by gun rate. Both of them are bordered on Mexico. Farmers along the Rio Grande (I believe it was their) are saying that the Mexican cartels are hiding drugs in their sugar cane crops. There have been numerous stories about masked gunmen showing up and running off harvesters to get their drugs out. Moreover, the DEA Special Agent in Charge in Chicago speaks of the 3 Mexican drug cartels that are currently in war over Chicago for control. They use the local gangs as their distribution. There have been over 250 (I believe that's low, but would rather err low than high if I'm not sourcing this time) murder by guns this year there. That is coming straight from the drug war out of Mexico. Gun control laws will not stop one of those murders, since the Mexican cartels are able to smuggle guns in right along side the drugs. The DEA agent also said that the same thing is spreading out to Milwaukee, Detroit, and two or three other cities. If that is true, then why are these murders counted in "gun murders in the US" when Mexico's are not? It's the exact same Drug War with the same Cartels. Once again, it shows the bias of the maker of the chart and that the chart itself, and the information it provides, is not accurate.

    2b. Excursis - The Brady campaign and others like to tout a GAO report that 80% or some number like that of guns in the Mexico Drug Wars are traced back to the US and thus, stricter gun laws will stop it. That is patently false. Here is why. The report says that a "small" number of the guns seized are actually submitted to the US for tracing. Why? the report doesn't say, but logic would dictate that THOSE are the ones that are believed comes from the US. Of those, 80% are actually traced back. So, that number is actually 80% of the guns that a trace is submitted to the states because it's believed the gun came from the states. It is NOT 80% of the guns in the Mexican Drug war. Moreover, Quite a few of those guns are actually traced to the US and established as delivered via the Govt. to the Mexican govt or other govts. to be used, and then they made their way into the hands of the Cartels. For instance, Tomas Dauahare was a General in the Mexican Defense Ministry. He was also the defense Attache for Mexico in Washington DC. This same man was arrested for facilitating drug trafficking. Two other Generals were arrested with him. Just how easy is it for Generals to hand over US made weapons that were legitimately sold the Mexican Govt. to FIGHT the drug wars? Add to that, the Zeta's (one of the gangs, was started by 14 Mexican army defectors and is run just like a military. I'm not even going to get into 'Fast and Furious' which put another 2000 guns into the hands of the Drug Cartels. For these reasons, I find the "We are arming the Mexican Cartels with our weak gun laws" to be a complete fallacy, and "gun laws" to prevent it will have almost no effect what so ever. That negates any argument about American laws invalidating Mexican statistics. They really should be on this list as well. Furthermore, if they aren't, then the hundreds, if not thousands of deaths due to the Drug Wars in the US should not be counted either.

    3. This article also states that an American is 20 times more likely to be killed by guns than any other "developed" country. Jim Moran also worte the same thing, but he was corrected by politifact. Yes, our rate is much higher, but these kinds of numbers are squishy at best and use all types of non-defined terms like "Developed" or "western" Using a much beter defined term, Polifact writes, "The most recent gun-related homicide rate for the U.S. was 3.0 per 100,000 compared to an 0.3 for the rest of the NATO nations.THE RATE WAS 10 TIMES HIGHER. PolitiFact Virginia | Rep. Jim Moran says U.S. gun homicide rate 20 times higher than other western nations That's exactly HALF of what the article claims. Politifact check also goes on to do a comparison from numbers in 03 or 04, and it shows that the number are down quite a bit. Matter of fact, it was THAT study that Moran got the 20x number from. So even with cherrypicking, it can be argued that the Murder by Gun rate as compared to other countries has been halved. Interestingly, it's been halved at the same time that the Brady bill expired, Arizona has loosened it's gun laws considerably, the SC has struck down other gun control laws, and all the Drug War murders are still happening.

    To conclude then, I don't reject the idea that the US has a higher murder rate by gun than other nations. I'm arguing that it is not NEARLY as significant as these numbers are making it out to be, and in an era where gun laws are loosening again, the murder by gun numbers are dropping considerable per 100,000 people, in comparison with other nations.

    That's my explanation of the chart.

  12. #72
    Senior Member Array Dandyone's Avatar
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    Re: More guns, more gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig35seven View Post
    What is the percent of gun deaths caused by thugs, gangs and bad guys vs. gun crimes by lawful citizens? I'd like to see that chart.
    Crimes can't be committed by lawful citizens.

    Your point is correct, though. It is all about who has the gun and to what end they use it.

    At the very minimum we need to break gun ownership into two categories: legally obtained guns, and illegally obtained guns. I think this would show the real problem, which are illegal owners deploying guns for nefarious purposes and malicious intent.

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  13. #73
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    Unless the antis are willing to impose the death penalty without the ability to drag out appeals for 20 years for ALL violent crimes (rape, murder, robbery, kidnapping,etc.) committed with guns they will continue to coddle and pamper criminals while turning law-abiding citizens into sheep. They must also greatly increase the penalty for felons possessing guns. If, and when this happens, I would be happy to give up some of my guns.

    The death penalty may not be an effective deterrent for criminals, but neither is the AWB.

  14. #74
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BHOWPE View Post
    Unless the antis are willing to impose the death penalty without the ability to drag out appeals for 20 years for ALL violent crimes (rape, murder, robbery, kidnapping,etc.) committed with guns they will continue to coddle and pamper criminals ...

    The death penalty may not be an effective deterrent for criminals, but neither is the AWB.
    The death penalty absolutely deters those who are executed from being able to execute other violent acts.

    Who's to say what the level of deterrence is for other people, those who would seek to avoid such a response by the People. Any gain there is just "gravy," in a sense, and doesn't itself alter the basic utility of removal of the most-violent from society.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  15. #75
    Member Array azretired's Avatar
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    I also believe you need to check your facts. Gun ownership does not necessarily mean crime. Besides the links below, read John Lott

    Current Worldwide Homicide/Murder Rate & Worldwide Data Obliterates Notion that Gun Ownership Correlates with Violence & ww.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/jul/22/gun-ownership-homicides-map

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