More guns, more gun deaths

This is a discussion on More guns, more gun deaths within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Each countries' violent crime rate must be taken into account as well IMHO. Getting clubbed over the head may not kill a person, but it ...

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  1. #76
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    Each countries' violent crime rate must be taken into account as well IMHO. Getting clubbed over the head may not kill a person, but it surely can leave them incapacitated and/or ruined for life. And then too, "violent" crime is classified differently between countries. And it's my understanding that even though some trials in some countries, even though the defendant is cleared of all charges, it's still counted as a violent crime.

    There's a lack of uniformity and standards from what I understand.

    Then there's the entire "defensive gun use" thing. CCW permit holder defends himself/herself from violent attack without firing a shot. Attacker escapes and attacks another, softer target, killing them. Yes, a crime has been prevented but does that count in the stats?
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  3. #77
    Senior Member Array acepilot's Avatar
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    This chart says otherwise...

    gunownershipvsgundeaths_zpsff637dac.jpg
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  4. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    it is an empirical fact that countries with more guns per capita have more gun deaths per capita, with the exception of Mexico.
    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    They (Mexico I assume) show an extremely high rate of gun violence relative to the population and number of guns. Is that wrong?
    You seem to be arguing with yourself.
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  5. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    I'm a scientifically-minded person, and it is an empirical fact that countries with more guns per capita have more gun deaths per capita, with the exception of Mexico. This makes sense to me. More guns around means more available to criminals (via theft), and more available to law-abiding citizens that turn criminal.

    I'm a believer in the importance of the second amendment, and I don't think we need to revise it, but a lot of smart people whose opinions I generally respect do feel that way.

    Is the higher rate of gun deaths simply the price we must pay for this freedom? Is it due to the gang violence in America that the numbers are so high? I'm looking for a way to understand this that will make an argument to rational people that we should not in fact infringe the second amendment, based on the desire for a society with less gun violence, not because it's written in the constitution. Am I looking in vain?

    I understand based on what has happened in the UK since their handgun ban that such bans are not effective, and I'm quick to point that out to skeptics, but what about the argument that we shouldn't have the guns and the violence in the first place? Is there anything beside "look at the Bill of Rights" that can even be said, empirically, to such criticisms?
    You need to read the research of John R. Lott, JR, the book, "More Guns Less Crime". He started researching crime rates in 1977 and the newest book is the third edition. This covers 39 states from 1977 to 2005. He has spent years researching and has the truest facts that I have ever seen. I do believe it will change your mind.

  6. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by acepilot View Post
    This chart says otherwise...

    gunownershipvsgundeaths_zpsff637dac.jpg
    What chart is that? Source/link??
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  7. #81
    Senior Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: More guns, more gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by RAL View Post
    You seem to be arguing with yourself.
    You understand the concept of an exception?

  8. #82
    Senior Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: More guns, more gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by acepilot View Post
    This chart says otherwise...

    gunownershipvsgundeaths_zpsff637dac.jpg
    That's interesting if you can give a source, because it gives homicides vs guns, not gun deaths vs guns.

  9. #83
    Senior Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxytwo View Post
    You need to read the research of John R. Lott, JR, the book, "More Guns Less Crime". He started researching crime rates in 1977 and the newest book is the third edition. This covers 39 states from 1977 to 2005. He has spent years researching and has the truest facts that I have ever seen. I do believe it will change your mind.
    Unfortunately Lott was somewhat discredited. I am however reading that gunfacts.info book. It's unbelievably good -- so good I don't believe it's true. I'm going through the footnotes one by one and trying to verify them, make sure they are true and also not cherry-picked. I may compile a list of links to the cited materials. I just emailed the author to ask whether he already has something like that. So far it appears he cites quite a number of biased sources, which is not helpful, as well as old news articles that have long since been pulled from the web.

  10. #84
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    Unfortunately Lott was somewhat discredited. I am however reading that gunfacts.info book. It's unbelievably good -- so good I don't believe it's true. I'm going through the footnotes one by one and trying to verify them, make sure they are true and also not cherry-picked. I may compile a list of links to the cited materials. I just emailed the author to ask whether he already has something like that. So far it appears he cites quite a number of biased sources, which is not helpful, as well as old news articles that have long since been pulled from the web.
    Discredited? By whom???

    I don't recall hearing anything about that. I'm pretty sure he is still considered one of the foremost experts on gun crime and violence statistics.
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  11. #85
    Senior Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: More guns, more gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    Discredited? By whom???

    I don't recall hearing anything about that. I'm pretty sure he is still considered one of the foremost experts on gun crime and violence statistics.
    Check the controversy section here.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lott

    I did say 'somewhat'. Of course gun control advocates take more stock in the accusations than do people like us.

  12. #86
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    Actually the primary purpose of the vast majority of guns in the US is putting holes in paper or other targets, then defense of law abiding citizens, next would be putting food on the table. Very rarely is it for random killing of people. Be very careful of comparing stats from other countries – the UK, for example, only counts convictions as crimes; if there’s no conviction the crime didn’t happen (according to them). You should also research how often law abiding citizens defend themselves against a criminal with a gun – much more often than any gun death stats. Take out suicides and criminal on criminal violence and guns save exponentially more lives of law abiding citizens than they take.
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  13. #87
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    More cars. more car deaths, more toys, more toys deaths, More toothpicks, more toothpicks deaths. More people. more people deaths. Give me a question and the survey results you want and I can conduct a real survey that says what you want it to say. For example... West Virginia is almost heaven do you agree or not agree... I make 1000 calls nationwide to all 50 states Majority says yes West Virginia is almost heaven. 90% of my calls were to west Virginia and the rest to other states. Anyone from West Virginia I would vote for the almost heaven I Love west virginia.

  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEF View Post
    I do not approach the discussion with empirical data. Instead, I believe self defense is a natural right. I also believe the second amendment is based, in part, on a recognition of this natural right.
    Many people fail to realize what you state in your post.Every human on the face of this earth has the right to protect themselves it is an inherent natural right,it doesn't have to be put down on paper and no statistics can change this .In this country it was decided to put it to paper and pen.If more people realized this and took responsibility for their own security and safety violent crimes of all types would be reduced.Unfortunatley many beleive that their safety and security is the responsibility of some government employee at the local,state or federal level.
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  15. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    I'm not making assumptions, I can easily pull up charts that support what I'm saying. Thank you for posting that document, however. I'm going to give it a thorough read. That's the kind of thing I'm looking for.

    Here's one sample.
    OK...what is the source data? What is the range of years of measured data?

    Has the data been normalized to take into account criminal vs criminal violence (so-called "gun violence") versus defensive-use of a firearm by a law-abiding citizen (which would be dishonest to call "gun violence")?

    As I'm sure you know, numbers can be twisted and interpreted to meet conditions. The Brady Bunch still calls those criminals (aged 18 to 22 or 26)who are killed by their victims in self-defense shootings, "children" to make their numbers "better" to meet their intent.

    Not to mention, citing twitter and/or wikipedia are not what could be called "academically sound" sources of information.
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  16. #90
    Senior Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: More guns, more gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    Not to mention, citing twitter and/or wikipedia are not what could be called "academically sound" sources of information.
    It's just a starting point, and unfortunately one that is considered instantly credible by many anti-gun people. I didn't get a PhD in engineering by not understanding how to critically look at data.

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