More guns, more gun deaths

This is a discussion on More guns, more gun deaths within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Not to mention, citing twitter and/or wikipedia are not what could be called "academically sound" sources of information. Actually wikipedia is a good reference to ...

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  1. #91
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Not to mention, citing twitter and/or wikipedia are not what could be called "academically sound" sources of information.
    Actually wikipedia is a good reference to start finding facts and I use it frequently in APA papers. The trick is to look at the source tha wikipedia uses in its entry and check that out for accuracy. Then you use that as a reference.
    As an example: the wiki reference he used about Lott takes you to three sources for that information. That is where critical thinking comes in.

    As far as Twitter................that is not even a good starting point LOL. I would never try to use that as a reference or starting point!
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  3. #92
    Member Array 19ElevenJoe's Avatar
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    In 2009 there were 24,518 Alcohol-induced mortalities and 16,799 homicides and not all of those from guns.

    I pulled this one stat just to prove a point and that point is that you can find all sorts of ways to kill someone else or yourself...will we, should we or could we, allow our government to regulate them all?

    I believe I read that there are an estimated 300 million guns in America looks like to me that most of them and probably an OVERWHELMING number of them, are being used in a responsible manner.

    So yep, more guns equal more deaths and more fast food equal more deaths and more booze equals more deaths and more salt equals more deaths and more cars equal more deaths...it is easy to single out firearms and for the life of me, I can't figure out why. We can even throw in dogs and cigarettes just for good measure. There have been hikers killed by bears and mountain lions...do we ban hiking? Perhaps we should rid the US of dangerous animals?

    This country was liberated with firearms and it has protected the world from tyranny with firearms and the originators of it's laws saw the need for the average individual to be armed. If you abandon that principle, then what comes next. You are on a slippery slope, be sure you choose your stand carefully because if you loose this freedom you won't be getting it back.
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  4. #93
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  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    I'm a scientifically-minded person, and it is an empirical fact that countries with more guns per capita have more gun deaths per capita, with the exception of Mexico. This makes sense to me. More guns around means more available to criminals (via theft), and more available to law-abiding citizens that turn criminal.

    I'm a believer in the importance of the second amendment, and I don't think we need to revise it, but a lot of smart people whose opinions I generally respect do feel that way.

    Is the higher rate of gun deaths simply the price we must pay for this freedom? Is it due to the gang violence in America that the numbers are so high? I'm looking for a way to understand this that will make an argument to rational people that we should not in fact infringe the second amendment, based on the desire for a society with less gun violence, not because it's written in the constitution. Am I looking in vain?

    I understand based on what has happened in the UK since their handgun ban that such bans are not effective, and I'm quick to point that out to skeptics, but what about the argument that we shouldn't have the guns and the violence in the first place? Is there anything beside "look at the Bill of Rights" that can even be said, empirically, to such criticisms?
    Countries with more cars have more car-related deaths, too. What you need to look at is the murder rate overall. In other words, are the guns to blame, or are people being killed in equal proportion to the total populace in other lesser-armed countries as well, wherein murderers are just using other means to commit the same crimes? Are the stats you use based on gun "murders" or gun-related "deaths?" i.e., are you only counting crimes involving guns, or are you also counting people shot by cops, security, accidental gun deaths, and people killed by those defending themselves? If you want a more accurate number, also eliminate suicides and gang-related shootings.

    Statistics are an evil thing easily manipulated in favor of the person presenting them.

  6. #95
    Member Array dugo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    I'm a scientifically-minded person, and it is an empirical fact that countries with more guns per capita have more gun deaths per capita, with the exception of Mexico. This makes sense to me. More guns around means more available to criminals (via theft), and more available to law-abiding citizens that turn criminal.

    I'm a believer in the importance of the second amendment, and I don't think we need to revise it, but a lot of smart people whose opinions I generally respect do feel that way.

    Is the higher rate of gun deaths simply the price we must pay for this freedom? Is it due to the gang violence in America that the numbers are so high? I'm looking for a way to understand this that will make an argument to rational people that we should not in fact infringe the second amendment, based on the desire for a society with less gun violence, not because it's written in the constitution. Am I looking in vain?

    I understand based on what has happened in the UK since their handgun ban that such bans are not effective, and I'm quick to point that out to skeptics, but what about the argument that we shouldn't have the guns and the violence in the first place? Is there anything beside "look at the Bill of Rights" that can even be said, empirically, to such criticisms?
    I'm not "scientifically-minded", like you, but to start at the wrong end of the scientific process, from a pre-determined "conclusion", and then work backwards, is to prejudice any hypothesis, or any observation, and destroy the credibility of the whole position.

    If your folks are indeed intelligent, they could examine the question of the effects of guns on/in society for themselves, with some degree of integrity and open-mindedness, rather than repeating plausible generalities without critical analysis. If they do that, you probably won't have to say anything to them.

    If they won't do that, then maybe they are not who they say they are.

    (Edited after reading rest of thread): Are you sure these people you know are not: ,,, you?

  7. #96
    Member Array Glock30SF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    it is an empirical fact
    Says who? You? Unless you are playing the best game of devil's advocate i've ever read you sound very anti-gun. Also to anyone in this thread or otherwise (joking, or saying beacause they know it would never happen) who says they would give up their guns if they could be Guaranteed criminals would give theirs up to need your head examined! Tyranny is the reason to NEVER give up your arms. Also guns level the playing field when out numbered,old,weak,injured, etc.
    “The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.”.... Albert Einstein

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  8. #97
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    Re: More guns, more gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911_Kimber View Post
    When there are no guns, criminals and mentally disturbed people turn to other tools to do their bidding...
    Agreed, had a co-worker that had a "mentally ill" neighbor that, for the most part, was benign...never an issue. One day this neighbor knocks on his door. My co-worker, recognizing him, opened the door - to multiple hammer blows to the head. If not for the will to live, he might not be here with us now. Since, this co-worker has armed himself.

    They, being the criminal or mentally ill, will find a way. I fear that it would be means that are far more destructive. Take the guns from law abiding civilians? There's less standing in their way...

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  9. #98
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    Hmmm ... Regarding the OP's suggestion that Lott had been discredited, and the link to Wikipedia ... There is no indication of any discrediting here, other than to say there was some controversy, without any link or cite. Controversy can be fuelled by any kind of attack, regardless of whether it has any rational basis. This, like the OP, does not offer any indication that Lott's work has any legitimate weaknesses, nor any credible indication that it has been in any way "discredited".
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  10. #99
    Member Array dugo's Avatar
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    Regarding the OP's statement that the "primary function of guns" is "death and destruction":


    Yo! Death and Destruction is not the primary function of guns. If you think it is, then probably you should not be allowed to have one. You are scaring me.

  11. #100
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: More guns, more gun deaths

    I am in fact playing devil's advocate, because it's all too easy to just confirm my own biases, which is not helpful to my cause. As for guns being designed for death and destruction, that was pointed out to me by my wife when I tried to make the 'cars kill people' argument. I'm sorry, if firearms are not designed to kill, then perhaps I need to find something else to carry. I guess you might say they are to stop the threat, and that's true in a defensive situation. I know they are designed to punch holes in paper too, and that is what I do with them. But seriously? Are you going to lay out a line of BS telling me that guns are NOT designed to kill people and animals?

    I get the feeling some people here would rather stick their heads in the sand and hope the second amendment protects them while the public is in a rage and repeals it. Do you think I would spend so much time and energy trying to understand this issue if I were anti-gun? I've seriously alienated a bunch of friends and business acquaintances on Facebook because of the stuff I've posted and arguments I've started there since Sandy Hook.

    If you think I'm somehow anti-gun, I have to conclude that you either (a) can't understand that not all of our opinions are demonstrably correct or (b) aren't paying attention.
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  12. #101
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: More guns, more gun deaths

    Anyway, my conclusion from this thread is that the best place to start is that gunfacts.info book. I'm going to start trying to find links for all of the citations and post them somewhere. If you want to help, send me a pm.

  13. #102
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    I think the correlation between killing someone with a gun, and a gun, or even the act of killing with a gun being an evil act needs to end. I don't personally think taking another's life with a gun is inherently evil in and of itself. quite often it's justified and warranted. As such it's not always a "bad thing."
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  14. #103
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: More guns, more gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by GlassWolf View Post
    I think the correlation between killing someone with a gun, and a gun, or even the act of killing with a gun being an evil act needs to end. I don't personally think taking another's life with a gun is inherently evil in and of itself. quite often it's justified and warranted. As such it's not always a "bad thing."
    And that is a perfectly valid point, as is the discussion about separating out types of deaths involving guns.

  15. #104
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    I understand statistics and how they can be manipulated in any direction. The point is that the Second Amendment to the Constitution was to establish that we as free men have the right to bear arms that shall not be infringed as a way to protect all other rights. Back then a military rifle was a flint lock, then cap lock and every house had the same as "We the People" were the militia. Fast forward to today. We have a standing army and a national guard which the founders were not in favor of. However, "We the People" are still the standing militia. Technology has changed and thus weaponry has changed but a military style rifle does have a purpose for the militia. Keep in mind that it is only a military style weapon as they have already legislated out the ease of having fully automatic weapons. The fact that we have a love affair with the gun follows right in line with our revolutionary spirit when we fought for freedom from Britain. Our problem is not with guns, it is with a loss of morals and in most cases sanity. The recent shootings were done by people who obviously had no moral compass as well as mental issues. We do not need to ban or restrict guns, we need to reestablish the moral compass if it is possible.
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  16. #105
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: More guns, more gun deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Glock30SF View Post
    Says who? You? Unless you are playing the best game of devil's advocate i've ever read you sound very anti-gun. Also to anyone in this thread or otherwise (joking, or saying beacause they know it would never happen) who says they would give up their guns if they could be Guaranteed criminals would give theirs up to need your head examined! Tyranny is the reason to NEVER give up your arms. Also guns level the playing field when out numbered,old,weak,injured, etc.
    Actually too, since starting this thread I found that an number of countries were excluded from that plot because the data were not on Wikipedia. Many of those countries are considered 'third-world' and have a higher ratio of gun deaths to guns in circulation than the US. I'm sure the follow-up question from an Anti would be, "ok, so do we want to compare ourselves with civilized nations or not?".

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