More guns, more gun deaths
This is a discussion on More guns, more gun deaths within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Might I suggest a reading:
A Piece of Wood, Ray Bradbury, 1978
While certainly the work of fiction, it makes an interesting, yet completely relevant, ...
December 23rd, 2012 02:02 PM
Re: More guns, more gun deaths
Might I suggest a reading:
A Piece of Wood, Ray Bradbury, 1978
While certainly the work of fiction, it makes an interesting, yet completely relevant, point....even with the barring or elimination of modern weapons, it will not erase the ill will, or hatred, amongst or created by man.
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'Fortes Fortuna Juvat'
“The Second Amendment is timeless for our Founders grasped that self-defense is three-fold: every free individual must protect themselves against the evil will of the man, the mob and the state.”
― Tiffany Madison
December 23rd, 2012 02:04 PM
Actually the big black gun IS the problem. If you are are a ruler or a tyrant, that is precisley the gun that you dont want the unwashed masses to own. Why? Because it can be wickedly efficient at its job.
the 'big black gun' is not the problem.
So you do your best to convice people that it is in their best interests to not own it. Whether you do it buy buying politicians,Presidents, buying media outlets, chanting mantras or sponsering or funding organizations that are dedicated to bringing about its demise,manipulating statistics or even convincing your local priest to preach about them at Sunday Mass...how ever you do it is irrevelent as long as it works, because in their eyes the ends justifies the means.
Make no mistake. Its not about the guns. It never has been and it never will be. Its about CONTROL.
I want to have a job where the is no accountability,a job where I can do as I dang well please and make my own laws and act like a KING. I want to be on the Supreme Court.
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December 23rd, 2012 02:09 PM
Your Economist friend might appreciate this too:
Why Not Renew the “Assault Weapons” Ban? Well, I’ll Tell You… « Kontradictions
You should well understand this:
Which would lead an economist (or any thinking person) to realize that a massive misallocation of resources is being foisted on the public by disingenuous and intellectually dishonest MSM and political class.
The fallacy of misleading vividness is when the thought, imagery or reality of something is so emotionally potent – positively or negatively – that you begin to overestimate the likelihood and frequency of its occurrence.
"He went on two legs, wore clothes and was a human being, but nevertheless he was in reality a wolf of the Steppes. He had learned a good deal . . . and was a fairly clever fellow. What he had not learned, however, was this: to find contentment in himself and his own life. The cause of this apparently was that at the bottom of his heart he knew all the time (or thought he knew) that he was in reality not a man, but a wolf of the Steppes."
December 23rd, 2012 02:12 PM
That link on the Top 10 is really great. Regarding the top two: I wouldn't agree, but I could see the argument for banning tobacco, but banning doctors because of medical mistakes? That shows the absurdity of what we're facing in all the gun control talk quite nicely.
December 23rd, 2012 02:16 PM
What really yanks my chain is that LESS than 2% of all people who own GUNS commit these heinous crimes! And of that 2% about half of those crimes ARE done with STOLEN GUNS THAT ARE STOLEN from LAW ABIDING citizens. BUT YET THE PUBLIC outcry to change the laws in a fashion that will make it ILLEGAL for the other 98% is just plain GOOFY. NEXT thing you know there will be an outcry to do away with traffic lights because people trying to beat the red light get in a crash. Does that make sense? No it doesn't because IF YOU RUN A LIGHT and get in a crash YOU ARE at FAULT. You made that decision No one made you do it. So before you get on the bandwagon to do away with guns REMEMBER that the person that pulls the trigger IS ALWAYS THE RESPONSIBLE party for doing so!
December 23rd, 2012 02:29 PM
Re: More guns, more gun deaths
This is actually true of red light cameras.
Originally Posted by oldtrucker
December 23rd, 2012 05:30 PM
This threat doesnt really addres the issue. Our Bill Of Rights and the Constitution are attacked by liberal left constantly. Now its not legal to call someone a Lunatic for crying out loud. Enough....The UN Needs to stay out and our elected officials need to Honor our Heritage and the United States Consitution. The gun issue is that America Has their rights thats it....... educate the public but dont impose Communist rules......That Simple.
December 23rd, 2012 09:53 PM
The problem I really see is that logic has little to do with the final outcome in gun control. It's a party platform argument, so it doesn't matter if you prove the other side imbicilic or not, they'll "rationalize" their way around anything you present as an argument, or they'll cheat and play some race, or emotion card or try to change the topic or what have you. You can rarely if ever out-argue someone from another political parry, which is why Jefferson feared a two-party system so much. Never argue with a fool. He'll drag you down to his level, then beat you with experience.
Our only hope in winning the 2A battle is in greater numbers, and using the law to our advantage, as we're fighting to keep our rights under the second amendment, not to gain some right we don't already have via the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Remember also, that an aggressor must vanquish to succeed. A defender need only survive. We need to survive the liberal onslaught.
December 23rd, 2012 10:05 PM
I love how all these stats are thrown around.
Q: What does 2+2= ?
Accountant' s answer: What do you want it to equal?
"When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan
Do what you can; then do what you must
December 23rd, 2012 10:46 PM
It's a hypothetical question, so, my thoughts are below to the argument: If we didn't have the guns in the first place:
Originally Posted by brocktice
Our ancestors may have starved to death, or have been killed by native Americans.
If we were still here, we’d be driving on the left side of the road.
We would be complaining about how much taxes we have to pay…to the Queen.
We’d likely have violent crime rates that are much higher than they are now. The United States violent crime RATE was 403.6 per 100,000 population in 2010. England and Wales’ violent crime RATE was 4079.7 per 100,000 ADULTS in 2010.
I am thankful that we have guns and have had violent times, so that we can be free.
December 23rd, 2012 11:05 PM
It seems that when the anti's start including statistic on gun violence, gun killings, gun shootings, etc. They link them all in together as one total number.
There are several sub-tistics to consider. Justifiable shootings, those crime related by criminals only who were also committing a crime by simply HAVING a gun in their possession, and the those by LEO doing their job protecting their communities inline of their duty.
It isn't just one number, there are too many variables to consider as well.
Also, if you look long enough, and dig deep enough; statistics will say what-ever you want them to interpret towards avenging your personal case, personal cause, and will effectively support your essays topics of choice.
December 23rd, 2012 11:15 PM
I can agree with more guns per capita can increase gun related deaths.
The chart originally posted, brings forth many questions.
1. Are the guns being counted legal or illegally possessed weapons, doubtful they were able to count these weapons.
2. Two, the US is in a unique situation, gun control being prominent in such places as LA and Chicago have a vastly different gun control than say places in Utah etc., and these seem to be where majority of gun crimes are commited, or "Gun free zones" as many call them.
I would take this argument with a grain of salt, as other countries are all for or have no government control to support the situations that can occur in the US. We have a unique view on armament and positions from the anti gun movement, as we have a choice. From what I can see, the chart may have a valid point, but of course can not encompass all points of information needed to make the argument valid.
December 23rd, 2012 11:33 PM
You hit on the core of the problem. The other side refuses to aknowledge this as a valid reason to own guns. They keep trying to trivialize the 2A with talk of "sporting purposes" and hunting. Once again, the reason for the arguments is a fundamental dissagreement in and disconect in what we are argueing. It is hard to decide who wins when you are playing different games by different rules.
Originally Posted by HotGuns
December 24th, 2012 12:24 AM
Brocktice, with all due respect, your post (#114), above, seems to be a continuation of the "lawyeristic" rationalization I alluded to, that often obscures understanding rather than enhancing it. It kind of restates what you already said without moving forward, and I don't think it would help things to respond further.
Below, Hotguns says, "Everything else is semantics." While I would caution that semantics has real and often intentionally prejudicial effects on thinking, I think hshe is mostly right.
Hotguns' post looks like a good place to start in getting a better understanding of the purposes and effects of firearms on/in society. I would not be offended if you read my post over again a little more slowly, also.
December 24th, 2012 12:59 AM
Re: More guns, more gun deaths
I understand all of that. I've thought about it quite a bit. It's just a different level of discussion and sophistication than was relevant to my point, but whatever, I'll sleep on it and see if there's some way to rescue that portion of the conversation tomorrow. The funny thing is, now that I think about it and re-read, that I think the problem is really what we each mean by 'primary'. As I see it tonight, it's just totally orthogonal to the original purpose of the thread.
Originally Posted by dugo
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