Pass this Timothy McVeigh photo/stats to others

This is a discussion on Pass this Timothy McVeigh photo/stats to others within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; the problem with keeping it strictly about the 2nd Amendment is not everyone cares about it b/c it doesn't affect them personally, or at least ...

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Thread: Pass this Timothy McVeigh photo/stats to others

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    the problem with keeping it strictly about the 2nd Amendment is not everyone cares about it b/c it doesn't affect them personally, or at least not that they're aware of - less than 50% of households own guns. Most people don't realize that guns, even semi-autos, are relatively inefficient when you consider you can spend all the time you want building a bomb off site and then use it to kill hundreds and leave a huge ugly reminder of the event in everyone's face that will last for at least months or you can block exits and set buildings on fire and set both of these events in motion remotely so one is free to do it again. When these nut jobs figure that out, there will be even more trouble - and the media bringing up the school bombing in 1927 is just plain irresponsible; of course that just might be the catalyst for the event that opens the eyes of the media and public.

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  3. #17
    Member Array giz5792's Avatar
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    I think what the Libs and their gun-grabbing followers fail to see the big picture. Why has no foreign country invaded ours? Armed citizens. The Constitution grants us certain rights and I believe the 2nd Amendment keeps those rights safe. Take the 2nd away, how long before the 1st or the 4th are gone? You start taking away the rights of the people, how long before they revolt against the oppression?

    People make rash decisions based on emotion and not thinking them through. Why do you think they are keeping the CT tragedy one the front page? What if co-co bird wasn't able to get his hands on his mom's guns? Chances are he would have found another way. And what about his mom keeping his "issues" private? Why are people so afraid to admit they might have something wrong with them. My wife is Bi-polar, but with the right medications, you would never know it meeting her for the first time. She struggled, realized she had a problem and got help. We need to find the long term solution to societies problems, not a band-aid that will fall off in time.

  4. #18
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    Re: Pass this Timothy McVeigh photo/stats to others

    Quote Originally Posted by SayVandelay View Post
    If you try to use that "lets just ban cars" argument your going to hear that the difference is your car is traceable, and a fertilizer bomb takes planning. I dont buy the argument anyway, but ven if you do you have to be careful about the points you make. Maybe how you make them too
    Careful about what points? What's wrong with the how?

    So what if its traceable? What's the difference? Not every crime is solved traceable or not.

    A killing spree isn't something that is planned? I'm not gonna wake up tomorrow and decide to wipe out a Tim Horton's or a Starbucks without some type of planning.

    Comes down to this: you can take my guns when you pry them from my cold dead hands.

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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by giz5792 View Post
    I think what the Libs and their gun-grabbing followers fail to see the big picture. Why has no foreign country invaded ours? Armed citizens. The Constitution grants us certain rights and I believe the 2nd Amendment keeps those rights safe. Take the 2nd away, how long before the 1st or the 4th are gone? You start taking away the rights of the people, how long before they revolt against the oppression?

    People make rash decisions based on emotion and not thinking them through. Why do you think they are keeping the CT tragedy one the front page? What if co-co bird wasn't able to get his hands on his mom's guns? Chances are he would have found another way. And what about his mom keeping his "issues" private? Why are people so afraid to admit they might have something wrong with them. My wife is Bi-polar, but with the right medications, you would never know it meeting her for the first time. She struggled, realized she had a problem and got help. We need to find the long term solution to societies problems, not a band-aid that will fall off in time.
    Actually the biggest reason our country has not been invaded is the vast size, geographical location (seperated by two oceans), two large "friendly" countries to the north and south, and a large and varied population that would most likely fight back if someone was stupid enough to invade us. Plus the fact that we have the best air force and navy in the world it would be suicidal for any country to mount such an invasion. A large standing army and marine corp, national guard, Reserves. The intelligence gathering ability (don't make fun of the failures) to detect if a country was going to invade us, the industrial might to produce arms and arm our citizens in a short period of time if needed.

    I would say that the 2A is way at the bottom of the list why we have not been invaded.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    The problem is this... Guns were used... That's all that EVERYBODY knows... I like the car argument... but cars weren't used... I like the fertilizer bomb argument, but bombs weren't used. Heck, I like the boxcutter/airliner argument... but airliners weren't used.

    The big picture is that evil is loose, and I've used that argument, too... but evil used guns.... And, gee, there was a madman in China on the same day as Sandy Hook.. that used knives to slash 22 children.. but this ain't China, and he didn't use a gun...

    The focal point, folks, is GUNS... The focal point is not the TRUTH.

    If Satan his own self... in red tights, with a goatee, and rams horns, with an AR 15 in one hand and a pitchfork in his other; had committed the atrocity in Sandy Hook... the answer would still be HE USED A GUN. GUNS are BAD...GUNS ARE THE FAVORED WEAPON OF SATAN. GUNS ARE THE PROBLEM.

    Until, outside the theater of war or police action, you can show an anti... where and when a regular civilian, exercising his right to carry an AR 15 with an extended mag, stopped an atrocity like this happening... You are not going to win the argument...

    To them, we are all wannabe Rambos. We are all GUN NUTS. And GUNS ARE THE PROBLEM.

    And, truth be told, while I'm at it... There is a large percentage of NRA members who agree that we have no need for "Assault Rifles" and extended mags. I DARE YOU TO PROVE OTHERWISE.

    ETA

    In fact, we've seen Satan with a gun before...

    OsamawithGun.jpg

    And, the problem is the GUN.
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    .
    .
    .

    And, the problem is the GUN.
    ... Because we've eliminated THAT particular Spawn of Satan... But his GUN is still out there....
    myrkr likes this.
    Politicians, take note of Colorado 9/10/2013.
    "You are elected to service, not power.
    Your job is to "serve us" not to lord power over us."
    Me, 9/11/13

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array GeorgiaDawg's Avatar
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    I see your point and won't chide you for sharing the picture. There are many arguments for why banning firearms is a bad and nonsensical idea. While the TM approach might not be appropriate for all arguments and with all people, there may be situations where it is good to draw from that example. Thank you for sharing.
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaDawg View Post
    I see your point and won't chide you for sharing the picture. There are many arguments for why banning firearms is a bad and nonsensical idea. While the TM approach might not be appropriate for all arguments and with all people, there may be situations where it is good to draw from that example. Thank you for sharing.
    There's the TRUTH again... Would that it mattered...

    It's a shame...

    We need some way to sell it... I hate to put it so crassly... but that's what we need ... a means to sell the TRUTH...
    Politicians, take note of Colorado 9/10/2013.
    "You are elected to service, not power.
    Your job is to "serve us" not to lord power over us."
    Me, 9/11/13

  10. #24
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    I have watched the ACLU ignore the 2A for the last 25 years. One blurb isn't going to change my mind. They have an established track record. If 5 or 10 years from now they are still on board then I'll change my tune.


    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I would say that the 2A is way at the bottom of the list why we have not been invaded.
    I would disagree here as well. The last country that really had the ability and means to invade the continental US was Japan. IMO they certainly were dissuaded from invading because of the 2A and our countries armed populace.

    "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." is a quote that is misattributed to Admiral Yamamoto but it captures his sentiment quite nicely. Yamamoto knew that he could never invade the US and win. Obviously there were many other factors involved but to say that a population armed to the teeth wasn't/isn't a deterrent.....well, that's just silly.
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    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference.

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array SatCong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    I see what you're saying.

    My point is that we may be in for the grandest fight for 2A in my lifetime. Too much of the focus right now is about "blaming the gun", and demonizing it during this emotional time. This picture represents the fact that gun ban's don't necessarily eliminate a problem, it also exposes the hyposcrisy of the gun control crowd. Of course we here at DC clearly know that, but I'd say it is could be beneficial to sway some of the fence-setter crowd to our way of thinking. Just as making comments of banning baseball bats, knives, propane, etc.
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  12. #26
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Some people don't care for the Constitution or the 2nd Amendment.

    The Constitution is one of the greatest documents in the history of the world, but the 16th Amendment leaves me scratching my head. Some people feel the same way about the 2A.

  13. #27
    Member Array DanDglassman's Avatar
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    Let me start by saying, I understand the need for our society to have meaningful change following the recent tragedy and determine ways to lower the liklihood of a repeat event. I have a problem with one of the arguments being used in the "assault weapon" & hi-cap mag debate. Anyone asking "Why would anyone NEED a semi-automatic gun or a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds?" is asking a question that could apply to many things in life. NEEDS and WANTS are often confused. We as human beings seek pleasurable experiences and avoid unpleasant ones. If we applied the "Why do you NEED [insert object here]" question to other things in life, how would life be?

    The following sorts of questions remind me of my dad (frugal)
    Why do you NEED a smart phone when a basic one will make calls?
    Why do you NEED a 52" TV when a 19" one will play the same shows?
    Why does one NEED a vehicle with 350 horse power when a 150 horse power vehicle will take you from A to B?
    Why does a teenager NEED a 2000 watt stereo when a 20 watt factory one will do?
    Why do you NEED to jump off a bridge with a rope tied around your ankles to have fun?

    More or less it comes down to entertainment value. I don't NEED a .223 semi-auto rifle with a 30 round mag, but I enjoy shooting it and as long as I operate it safely and do not use it for nefarious purposes, I ask "Why shouldn't I be able to own a .223 semi-auto rifle with a 30 round mag?" I'm sure that makes me look selfish, but so be it.

    I feel a little entitled to be selfish and defensive. The only path offered by our leaders to prevent reoccurrance of events like these is to develop ways to limit law abiding gun enthusists. I would be a little more open to the discussion if our President developed a "School violence and security" taskforce rather than the Gun Control taskforce he is now pursuing. His strategy is single faceted.

    If we know that help [LEO, SWAT] is 10 minutes away from a location, then that location should have enough defensive capability to hold off a perp until help can arrive. Defensive doesn't necessarily mean armed guards it can be passive security, [but I think one part of a solution is to have an armed security guard for the campus. BTW I am not in favor of armed teachers/admins. Their primary job is to teach.] Why not upgrade external glass such that it is shatter resistant? How many fewer people would have been killed if it took the perp 5 minutes longer to breach the outer door? Society need to look at many more facets than just gun control. Better defensively designed schools, better awareness training, better identification of at risk persons - it is all going to have to cme into play.

  14. #28
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    I think what the Libs and their gun-grabbing followers fail to see the big picture. Why has no foreign country invaded ours? Armed citizens.
    We have never been invaded due to geography. A vast ocean to our east, a vast ocean to our west. Friendlies to the north, and a country to our south with their own problems. Yes, I know the quote about guns behind every blade of grass, but it is geography, pure and simple. The Brits tried back there a year or two ago. That lesson was not lost on the world.

    Yea, guns are important, but they're not worried about geopolitics. They want domestic control.
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