We have lost the real point of the 2A

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Thread: We have lost the real point of the 2A

  1. #16
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    Array HotGuns's Avatar
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    Dang...
    times are a changing.

    I finally met a laywer that I agree with.
    relentless likes this.
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  3. #17
    Member Array relentless's Avatar
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    Haha. Good one HotGuns.

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    The situation is both more complicated and less complicated:

    The intention of the founding fathers was to prevent the government from de-arming the people, and not from de-arming them so they couldn't go hunting, de-arming them so they could not rise up against the government should the need arise. That was the intention, plain and simple, and in plain and simple terms it means the government of the United States cannot ban guns. It has nothing to do with the use of military style weapons, sporting weapons, or collectible and decorative wall-hangers. The government cannot de-arm the people.

    The further amendments such as the 13th and 14th, where the Constitution clearly delineates between born and naturalized citizens and people that reside here that are not citizens, don't create any problem for the 2A. Sure we can get granular on the language of the Constitution and note that at one time slaves and women were considered not much more than property, but if you're going to get granular on the language note that the language does not diffrentiate between male and female and slavery was abolished. Once a citizen becomes a citizen, they are then bound by the laws of the states.

    Do I want guns kept out of the hands of nut-cases, terrorists and bona-fide criminals? Of course I do. So my options are start squealing on my neighbors or allow for some mechanism at the point of purchase to at a minimum force a gun purchaser to lie about their mental state, criminal record, or have obtained illegally papers that say they are a citizen.

    In my mind it's simply thus: the elected officials are sworn to protect and defend the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights have long been held as the core of the rights of the people that the Constitution governs. So our government officials need to defend the Constitution, not tear it down.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peckman28 View Post
    You know you're right. Let's get right down to it, because the 13A and 14A are also there. The Constitution says what it says, and throwing out the nonsense about the Founders' view on slaves serves no purpose whatsoever. The expressed purpose of the 14A was to incorporate the Bill of Rights against the states, and to make it apply to everyone. Illegal immigrants...there should be no such thing. Abolish tax dollars being used to "help people" through welfare programs, and anyone who enters this country would have to sink or swim on their own. The argument that you have to pay for them vanishes, and we only attract productive people. So, with that being said...I say let them come and buy their M4s at Wal-Mart. I damn sure don't want to sit here paying the price in my own freedoms for what someone who has come from Mexico looking for a better life might do, and you shouldn't either. Let's allow true liberty to rise, reject the parts our Founding Fathers got wrong, embrace what they got right and expand upon it. Using the fact that they owned slaves (something that was very common in their time, and throughout human history) as an excuse for restricting people now and not taking the Constitution seriously will get no sympathy from me.
    I got no problem with the corrections we made in the constitution... absolutely none... I do point out that only certain of our breed were considered people... and that females of any race were "inferior" longer than men of any race.

    We have as a Nation, corrected those wrongs through Constitutional amendment. I'm grateful for that...

    I just wanted to make certain you were on board with any ol' body goin' into walmart and buyin his weapon of choice.

    And, while you're after the whole megillah, let's not forget that there is no Constitutional restriction on felons, child abusers, wife beaters, or the mentally ill making their trip to wal mart as well... Come to think of it... Why is there an age limit?

    Let's let every 14 year old victim of school bullies go buy a ma duece... He can mount it on the back of his moped drive to school and have a little "show and tell."

    And, let's not go there with a 14 year old won't be able to afford.... you'd be amazed at the limits on the credit cards that are given to our children in this country.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  6. #20
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    First Amendment to the Constitution:

    1) Authorizes free speech for official State news agencies.

    2)Protects the individual's right to own quill pens and 18th century manual printing presses.

    3)Recognizes inalienable individual right to free speech.


    Second Amendment to the Constitution:
    1) Authorizes posession of arms by the Army and National Guard.

    2)Protects the individual's right to own flint lock muskets and other 18th century arms.

    3)Recognizes inalienable individual right to keeping and bearing arms.
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

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  7. #21
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    Re: We have lost the real point of the 2A

    I think the Founders would be utterly delighted that over 200 years has past and we are still here struggling to understand , to give meaning to their August words. Even they were not sure so they voted on it.

    ...
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    I got no problem with the corrections we made in the constitution... absolutely none... I do point out that only certain of our breed were considered people... and that females of any race were "inferior" longer than men of any race.

    We have as a Nation, corrected those wrongs through Constitutional amendment. I'm grateful for that...

    I just wanted to make certain you were on board with any ol' body goin' into walmart and buyin his weapon of choice.

    And, while you're after the whole megillah, let's not forget that there is no Constitutional restriction on felons, child abusers, wife beaters, or the mentally ill making their trip to wal mart as well... Come to think of it... Why is there an age limit?

    Let's let every 14 year old victim of school bullies go buy a ma duece... He can mount it on the back of his moped drive to school and have a little "show and tell."


    And, let's not go there with a 14 year old won't be able to afford.... you'd be amazed at the limits on the credit cards that are given to our children in this country.
    The 14 year old must be dealt with by his/her parents, not the government. Should Wal-Mart choose not to sell to him, because he's 14...they would have every right. Again, it would be Wal-Mart's policy, not the government's. It would be between the child and the parent, not the government. As far as psychos/murderers/felons/wife beaters...good luck identifying all of them beforehand. If someone is such a violent threat to society that they should never own a gun, what are they doing roaming free at all? If you're such a lunatic or you're so violent, you shouldn't be let out at all. Problem solved, at least as best it can be. If a formerly convicted felon is released because they are deemed no longer a threat (perhaps, or preferably, because their crime was non-violent in nature) then they need to truly be treated as not a threat.

    The entire concept of being a felon needs to be looked at anyway. It's too easy to become a felon in this country even if you've harmed no one. The felony conviction needs to be reserved for truly heinous crimes. Telling me and everyone else they must first prove themselves to the State before they can be allowed to own a certain type of property is ridiculous, and as you even admit, isn't actually authorized in the Constitution. I see no justification for it; it's the same stupid mentality you see in the military. The abuses of a few supposedly justify punishment for all. Prior to 1968 there wasn't a prohibited persons list, and you could just buy what you wanted via mail order. That is the way it should be. This wasn't a third-world hellhole back then, and there is no reason to think it would be now either.

  9. #23
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    "To bear arms..."

    But I can wear long sleeves if I choose, right?
    Darrow75 likes this.
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  10. #24
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    Agree with minimalbrat. From the founding father's point of view, they knew they wouldn't be where they were at (free and independent) if no one had weapons to fight back against a tyrannical government - the King of England in their case. I doubt hunting or home defense was even thought of while the Bill of Rights was being drafted. In those days, hunting was taken for granted and home defense would have been a kind of catch-as-can affair at best: "Can you home invader's wait a sec while I load my musket?" What an awesome bunch they were. They were the very first to define and build a true democracy and they did it with no examples or previous experience to work from. The fact that it has lasted all these years is a true testament to their brilliance and foresight. Can you imagine what Thomas Jefferson or Alexander Hamilton would say to Obama if they were alive today?
    minimalbrat likes this.

  11. #25
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    Re: We have lost the real point of the 2A

    Quick review. The ancient Greeks invented democracy. Ours was not fomented from some void but through an acute understanding of the totality of western history, the pinnacle of the Enlightenment era.

    ...
    The problem with the world is grown-ups behaving like unsupervised children.
    There is a solution but we are not Jedi... not yet.
    Doghandler

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    So, if the real point of the second is to have arms to overthrow a government that has become to "governmental." Why then, did the "Union" fight the Confederacy? Or, rather, if we have reached the point where we are angry enough, have gone out on our porches with our guns, and seen our neighbors there on their own stoops with their arms, are we to go to war against our government?

    I think that's been tried... in several "rebellions" late in the founding era... and unto the civil war... and the government had the "right" to stop such insurrections, and did so.

    I understand that it may have been part of the original intent... But in the intervening years, our government, and its standing army, have become too big to fight and beat.

    There is plenty of proof that the second was based on some state constitutions... in which it was stated that the people of the state had the right to arms for protection of themselves and of the state.

    As far as "dealing" with the minor in one's house... whether 14 or 20 (the age of the Sandy Hook killer... it is quite possible that the mother tried to "deal" with him... and got shot for her troubles.

    Legislating against inanimate objects, unless we can erase them from the face of the earth completely, will have no effect. Of that I am certain.

    Legislation at this point, against "assault weapons" or extended magazines is absolutely ludicrous... in fact, all of the existing extended magazines and most of the assault rifles are gone from the shelves... In preparation for the coming attempt at a ban...

    There will be existing "ban weapons" for criminals and the criminally insane to steal and use against those who may comply with such a ban...
    bigmacque likes this.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    Don't simply write off the Army as blindly following the leader. Yeah, if they are aligned with what they are being told to do they will follow orders, but there are a plethora of other protections in place that keep the Army/armed forces from firing on American Citizens.

    I kind of have to disagree with you a little oakchas, I don't believe it was part of the thought process that went into the writing of the 2A, I believe it was foundation of that amendment. The states didn't want a federal government that could disarm them and then rule over them.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

  14. #28
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    There has been a lot of talk lately about British gun control laws and how well that works in Great Britain. I will be the first to admit that it does.

    There has also been a lot of talk that the same laws should be instituted here in the United States. Some of our citizens agree. My advice? Move back across the pond.

    The British are accustomed to being subjugated. The monarchy has existed for centuries. Apparently they like being told what to do.

    The folks who didn't like being told what to do moved over here. We're the upstarts, the rabble rousers, the up yours, and in your face. We're Americans. We love guns because guns gave us a freedom from the British monarchy. It's a different culture. People from England don't understand that. Sadly, some Americans don't either.
    SIXTO, DPro.40, bigmacque and 1 others like this.
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  15. #29
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    Here is my take on the 2nd Amendment, put into more modern language: "A citizenry, armed with similar and suitable weapons, is necessary to protect a free country from all enemies, both foreign and domestic. Therefore, a citizens' individual right to keep and bear arms shall not be restricted." No, this doesn't mean that everyone can run out and buy a nuclear warhead. That is a strategic weapon, not a tactical one, and is not a part of regular issue. An Abrams tank, or a F-16 fighter jet, well, how many of you have the money to purchase one and pay for upkeep and the money, time, and training areas to maintain proficiency? As far as full-auto weapons, we are back to time and money to maintain proficiency. Besides, I was taught that aimed fire was much more effective than "rock and roll".

  16. #30
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    The 2nd amendment exists for one purpose, to allow one to defend oneself against an attack, whether it be from your neighbor or the government. The founders never intended there to be a standing army under control of the Federal Government.

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