Maybe it's time to end the American experiment.

This is a discussion on Maybe it's time to end the American experiment. within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by palmgopher these politians no longer care what the voters want. they go by what they think is better for us. we are ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palmgopher View Post
    these politians no longer care what the voters want. they go by what they think is better for us. we are nothing but subjects that put them in office if they feed us enough crap. once in office they do just enough to keep us from voting for the other guy and do what they want the rest of the time. oh yeah and the scare the public into doing what we want is working great for the dems. if you vote for republicans they will take away all your free stuff so vote for us and we will give you more free stuff. sad!!!!
    And if you don't vote for us, we'll cheat on the election and win anyway, so you lose either way.
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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array xsigma40cal's Avatar
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    As far as posing the legal question of whether the states have rights when it comes to how guns are regulated, you could turn a liberal argument around and say "If militia's are to be regulated in the sense that are subject to laws regarding firearms, it would be a right enumerated to the states since the conventional meaning of "militia" is a collection armed citizens who, when organized, are at the service of the state." The federal Govt would have no jurisdiction over the matter since they -gun owners- have passed the litmus test to be legally armed by the state in which they reside. Its already like that since we all know of the CCW reciprocity and how some states do not recognize other permit holders because of differences in legal doctrine. At a state level, 2A works as it should since it never infringes without due process of law. Federally, well, look at what's going on now. The Federal Govt is dictating to the states how its citizens are to be regulated which does infringe. Case in point, the $200 fee that is charged to owners for registering their semi-autos as a class 3. If $20 bucks for a voter ID card is to burdensome, according to Holder, then what would he call this? A tax? I dont see that bird flying in the Supreme Court as it is imposed on items already owned by the individual.

    But this all shouting at the wind as they're going ahead with this anyway. Perhaps a large scale secession isn't beyond the question after all.
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    Break up the states? If those cadets in Charleston had just deported the Federal troops in Ft. Sumter instead of shooting at them, it might have worked.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
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    Senior Member Array xsigma40cal's Avatar
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    Actually, I take that back about the "militia". With "...the right of the people shall not be infringed.", the line is blurred between what constitutes a militia and what is a private citizen. Either way, its up to the state.
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  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Maybe it's time to end the American experiment.

    Quote Originally Posted by palmgopher View Post
    h yeah and the scare the public into doing what we want is working great for the dems. if you vote for republicans they will take away all your free stuff so vote for us and we will give you more free stuff. sad!!!!
    This kind of thinking is a large part of the problem. 'I, palmgopher, do hearby swear fealty to the Republican Party'. The desire to legislate away peoples rights has kept me from voting for as many R's as has D's. It sounds great as long as it isn't your ox that they want to gore.

  7. #21
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    At that time, with no "regular" standing army, each state had its own militia, composed of private citizens made available upon call. The state was not responsible for providing arms so each individual was expected to provide his own and to maintain his proficiency. The concept of the "citizen soldier" continues to this day.
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  8. #22
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    Technically we are already set up that way. Throughout history and as you see in Europe, a sovereign land is referred to as a "state." Each nation in the world is its own State, as are our 50 states... how its supposed to work is that other than inter-state and international commerce, and the common defense of the nation, each "state" takes care of itself and is sovereign...hence, The United States of America.. separate but united "States," all in the continent of America..

    We have come to think of our 50 states more like territories and provinces than as "States," note the capital S.

    But the organization and management of the country has gone to crap... things have changed and not for the better in most cases. The way of our world isnt what it used to be.

  9. #23
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    To the point of the militia... all able-bodied men between the ages of 17-44 constitute the militia.. even to this day.. but you will never be called to arms to perform that duty. If so, it would solidify your rights as a firearms owner and put you/us into a protected class.. which those in power would not do.

    So legally, we have two militias, the organized militia.. which is are modern day military.. and the enrolled militia, which is the body of citizens. It has been this way since the Militia Act was passed in May of 1792, which distinguished the two roles.

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    Distinguished Member Array phreddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram25 View Post
    My personal opinion, we need to do away with the Electoral College, so every vote in this country is equal to every other vote. Why should votes in some states be worth more than those in others?

    As per the OP, don't know if we would ever get there, but it's an interesting scenario!
    I would prefer to see electors awarded by congressional district with each state having only two electors that go to the winner of the state as a whole.

    From my discussions with my poltical science professor uncle, originally the elctors were awarded by each state's government just like Senators. Each state has the ability to decide how its electors vote.
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    It seems strange that people from states (like my own) that exist largely at the expense of the federal government. Alabama is only able to balance it's budget and have paved roads and infra-structure capable of supporting a modern economy due to federal welfare.

    If a state should really want to secede then it should reform its own tax and payment system first so it can function as an independent nation. Until that is done this is all just fantasy and reminds me of a recent quote I heard.

    If the prospect of changing the way you live terrifies you, but the thought of facing the consequences of the way you live terrifies you just as much, daydreaming that some outside force will come along and change everything for you can be a convenient way to avoid having to think about the future you’re making for yourself.

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    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

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  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Maybe it's time to end the American experiment.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonJ View Post
    So legally, we have two militias, the organized militia.. which is are modern day military.. and the enrolled militia, which is the body of citizens. It has been this way since the Militia Act was passed in May of 1792, which distinguished the two roles.
    Interestingly, SCOTUS has used the litmus test of weapons having military or defensive value in declaring them protected under the 2nd. From this perspective, "military style assault" rifles as the media likes to call them should be clearly in the protected territory for possession by citizens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    It seems strange that people from states (like my own) that exist largely at the expense of the federal government. Alabama is only able to balance it's budget and have paved roads and infra-structure capable of supporting a modern economy due to federal welfare.

    If a state should really want to secede then it should reform its own tax and payment system first so it can function as an independent nation. Until that is done this is all just fantasy and reminds me of a recent quote I heard.
    I am not saying Alabama should secede, but if it does, all the tax money - income taxes, excise taxes, payroll taxes, etc., that go to the feds will go to Montgomery. That would probably help it balance its budget. Just a thought.
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    I am not saying Alabama should secede, but if it does, all the tax money - income taxes, excise taxes, payroll taxes, etc., that go to the feds will go to Montgomery. That would probably help it balance its budget. Just a thought.

    Sorry but I had to laugh, mainly because of the quality of the people we elect to Montgomery.

    But you are right, the tax money collected will go to Alabama, the problem is the Alabama spends more in tax money than it collects (state + federal) and that is the point I was trying to make.

    I am for local government and local solutions for local problems. I just find that most people do not realize that the services they want the government to provide for them costs more then they are willing to pay. I am mainly talking about my small town, but it can refer to higher levels of government
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  15. #29
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    Is that just transfer payments, or does it include extra sources of local economic benefit such as military bases?
    Our current plan for Universal Iron Lung coverage, just sayin'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xsigma40cal View Post
    Actually, I take that back about the "militia". With "...the right of the people shall not be infringed.", the line is blurred between what constitutes a militia and what is a private citizen. Either way, its up to the state.
    "State" in 2A refers to the nation state - the federal government.
    Federalists and the reality of national defense shifted the balance of power from the states to the federal government by the time of ratification of the BOR, which, for political purposes, set limits on federal power.
    IOW, the Constitution establishes federal supremacy. The BOR bars the federal government's superseding any rights not specified to it in the Constitution and lists some such rights, specifically. Read 2A in the context of the times, and it says that, though we shall have federal supremacy and the military force necessary to maintain it, neither federal supremacy or its military shall infringe on the right of the people to keep and bear arms, and the people shall retain the right.
    Interestingly, the McDonald decision says 2A bars states too.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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