A question to you Permanent Residents (and others).

This is a discussion on A question to you Permanent Residents (and others). within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Not to be rude, but they aren't your statutes. If you want the protections of a citizen, become one. Otherwise you're welcome to visit, but ...

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Thread: A question to you Permanent Residents (and others).

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    Not to be rude, but they aren't your statutes.

    If you want the protections of a citizen, become one. Otherwise you're welcome to visit, but don't be suprised if funny little things like this happen from time to time.

    My own belief is that the full protections of the Constitution should only apply to citizens, less er protections for legal residents and visitors, and none at all for illegals, but that's fuel for another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragman View Post
    Despite the recent citizen\Permanent resident thread and whatever your views may be, what we have here is a potential case of BATFE implementing new 'laws' that are not on our statutes.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarySlinger View Post
    Nit-picking, but stick the word "ordinarily" between "cannot" and "stay out". You CAN do it, but you need to arrange it in advance, and there needs to be a pretty good reason for it. But, in general, they're (the State) looking for new PR's to stick around for a few years and contribute to the local economy and such. That's fair.

    G.
    Gary, your are right about the extension. Thanks for the correction
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post

    If you want the protections of a citizen, become one. Otherwise you're welcome to visit, but don't be suprised if funny little things like this happen from time to time..
    Maybe you missed the post where it was mentioned but for Fragman is not a question of choice but of law: He cannot become a Citizen until he's been here for 5 years as a Permanent Resident.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
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  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    Still not being clear

    OK, I still dont think I am getting my point over. So, let me clear up a few things

    I can apply for Citizenship in February. As I am married to an American, I only have to wait three years since getting my PR. So the PR\Citizen thing is not really an issue for me. That's not the factor behind my post. My bank would prefer that I wait a few months before my next purchase anyway!! So my next purchase would be as a citizen anyway.

    The point I was trying to make is that what I saw was a 'new' rule coming in to play, that did not exist before. A new gun control. This is how it is done. Small incremental controls are introduced, which seem reasonable to the majority. Once they become law, it is harder to remove those controls. Then, they bring in new laws, new members of society that are deemed 'unfit'. Or maybe new weapons that are deemed 'unsuitable'. again, the majority think 'well, thats reasonable', because the majority fall into the group that gets to keep their guns. But each time, the group gets smaller.

    This is kind of what happened in the U.K. Certain guns were banned at a time. And it mostly happened in the last 20 or so years.

    And, with all due respect to Tank Soldier, they are my statutes. I have to abide by them as much as anyone else. I am not a 'visitor'. That would be why they call it 'Permanent' Resident. I also pay taxes to those that make those statutes. I also have an American born wife, son, and daughter to protect. Maybe if you actually KNEW any Permanent Residents, you would see they are just like you and just as commited to this country as you are (and I see that you have served 15 years for this country in the Army, which is outstanding). Maybe you do know some and don't even know it.

    I do understand your point about 'if you want to be part of this country, then do it properly and become a citizen'. But it's not quite as straightforward as that. There are time limits. And my American family need protecting in that time. Furthermore, that's not the point I was trying to make. My point was about incremental gun control and I was curious to see if this was a one off or if anyone else had experienced this.

  6. #20
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    Perhaps a clarification of the regs by the ATF might help. I suggest a letter to them.

    Note: Lets keep this thread in line with the original question . thanks all.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Lets not make this personal .. Lets get back on topic i was going to close the thread but will leave it for now if it stays on topic..

    As i see it the topic is are the ATF trying to slide some new rules in with out telling anyone

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    Frag, again my guess would be the travel provision for Permanent Residents and you may want to include any other changes that were done at your State level such as increasing paperwork to obtain a driver's license after 9/11 and they need to see if your DL/ID's conform to the new directives. Even internal adjustmets made by local & federal institutions as new interpretations of established rules. There is a very active underworld hawkin fake Green Cards and other ID's for illegals and we could also asume that in questions like gun purchases they may want to take a bit extra time checking ID out.

    Let's also include who was on the other side of the phone during the background check. He/she might be a new employee and not up to speed with all the nuances. On my last acquisition I was denied because there was somebody with a similar name as mine and same posted birthdate wanted for murder. The shop owner was smart enough to get some more information from me and pushed to get the check through and I already was enjoying the benefits of citizenship!
    Last edited by Miggy; October 23rd, 2006 at 09:57 AM. Reason: adding data
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
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  9. #23
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bud White View Post
    As I see it the topic is are the ATF trying to slide some new rules in with out telling anyone
    That's exactly right. Never needed to go through the backround check until yeaterday. So thats new. Not a big deal and I got a 'Delay', which is no big thing either. The store is maybe 3 miles away.

    The concerning thing was the 'If you have travelled in the last 90 days, they will deny'. I'm hoping that was bad information. So, I was wondering if any other PR had been denied because they had travelled (out of country) in the last 90 days. And, along with that, had anyone else noticed anything or heard anything new.

  10. #24
    Member Array GarySlinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragman View Post
    The point I was trying to make is that what I saw was a 'new' rule coming in to play, that did not exist before. A new gun control. This is how it is done. Small incremental controls are introduced, which seem reasonable to the majority. Once they become law, it is harder to remove those controls. Then, they bring in new laws, new members of society that are deemed 'unfit'. Or maybe new weapons that are deemed 'unsuitable'. again, the majority think 'well, thats reasonable', because the majority fall into the group that gets to keep their guns. But each time, the group gets smaller.
    Let's turn this around a little bit - suppose the law works such that a US Citizen who goes abroad for a few months to work, perhaps on a reconstruction project in the oil industry for instance, comes back and finds that the next time they're trying to purchase a gun, they get "additional checks". Is it OK? Rather depends on your views on gun control, doesn't it? Creeping incrementalism is not always a good thing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragman View Post

    This is kind of what happened in the U.K. Certain guns were banned at a time. And it mostly happened in the last 20 or so years.
    And of course there's no gun violence in the UK any more... NOT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragman View Post
    And, with all due respect to Tank Soldier, they are my statutes. I have to abide by them as much as anyone else. I am not a 'visitor'. That would be why they call it 'Permanent' Resident. I also pay taxes to those that make those statutes. I also have an American born wife, son, and daughter to protect. Maybe if you actually KNEW any Permanent Residents, you would see they are just like you and just as commited to this country as you are (and I see that you have served 15 years for this country in the Army, which is outstanding). Maybe you do know some and don't even know it.
    I don't do "+1"'s, but if I did, well....

    G.

  11. #25
    Member Array GarySlinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragman View Post
    The concerning thing was the 'If you have travelled in the last 90 days, they will deny'. I'm hoping that was bad information. So, I was wondering if any other PR had been denied because they had travelled (out of country) in the last 90 days. And, along with that, had anyone else noticed anything or heard anything new.
    This may actually tie-in to/close that loophole I mentioned about PR's having to show three months of utility bills to show "residency" in the State?

    G.

  12. #26
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    I believe these checks were started when the Canadain Mountie was killed with a CETME, that was bought in the US and then smuggled into Canada. I think I remeber hearing about the Canadain goverment ask the State Department to help the curb the illegal importation of firearms. But seeing how I can not remember were I heard this I could have dreamed it. If someone knows how to check this please let me know.

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    Perhaps a clarification of the regs by the ATF might help. I suggest a letter to them.
    I agree with this and as others have siad, may or may not have been already in place, but not enfored, or even known about by the guys at the gunshop.

    Not everyone can know all the rules, but I'm sure the ones who want to do all they are supposed to, would modify their mode of operation A.S.A.P. after finding out they were leaving out a step.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

  14. #28
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    I have picked up this thread late, and seem to have mised most of the arguments. My wife is a Canadian citizen who is apermament redisdent. She wants to become an U.S. citizen but it is not that easy of a process, neither was her becoming a citizen. She has yet to buy a firearm, but it did take her longer for her to get her CCW. I'm not sure if that was a more extensive background check or if the Elmore county sheriff's office is not use to getting CCW apps. from non-citizens. I do know that the department of Homeland Security, (which Immigration and BATF are both in) is one messed up agency. I deal with them on a routine basis and no one seems to know who to report to within the agency. At least that is the impression that I get.

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragman View Post
    My point wasn't about the background check per se, but about the fact that someone (BATFE I'm guessing) has gone up with a new rule without a stature to back it up. Next, it will be some other rule, maybe people who have a poor credit score?
    Please be aware: the ATFE (among other Federal Agencies) does not require a law or statute to be in place to regulate something for which they have "oversight"- it is called a "Ruling", and Rulings may be implemented without prior notice, or Legislative acceptance. What it really boils down to is whether the issuing agency feels it has adequate support, and can afford to slap down a court challenge or two. If a Ruling is counter to the desires of a large demographic, it will be unlikely to be issued, per se, but may be used as a "Finding" to support legislation. If a Ruling seems to have a large demographic in favor of it........... I think you see the drift.

    The EPA, ATFE, BLM, INS, NFS(Forest Service), and DOT, among others have this authority.

  16. #30
    Senior Member Array A1C Lickey's Avatar
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    This actually concerns me quite a bit. First it seems like the BATFE is just making up new regulations. Secondly my grandfather was a permanent resident of this country for nearly forty years before he went and got his citizenship. He would make at least two if not three trips abroad every year, mostly back to India but to Europe as well. What rights could he have been denied just because he traveled (mostly) for work.
    TSgt. Lickey

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