We're smarter than this situation that we're reacting to.

This is a discussion on We're smarter than this situation that we're reacting to. within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I started shooting as a 13 year old, joined the gun industry via the holster industry at 20 after studying 2 years to become an ...

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 58
Like Tree78Likes

Thread: We're smarter than this situation that we're reacting to.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array rednichols's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    585

    We're smarter than this situation that we're reacting to.

    I started shooting as a 13 year old, joined the gun industry via the holster industry at 20 after studying 2 years to become an LE officer: so I joined the industry because I approve of guns, not the other way 'round. On this forum I use my real name, I have my creds posted in various forms, and so I'm not trying to poke a snake with a very long stick. But:

    When I wrote originally to NRA about the connection I see between game and film violence, it's because I believe it's a rock-solid connection, and it needs to be faced.

    We're smarter than this situation we're reacting to, aren't we? So rather than playing a defensive game about labels like "assault rifle", etc., I feel we should be on offense by hammering the connection between "monkey see, monkey do" and violent films and games.

    I acknowledge that there are avid gamers on this forum, and that you all (I'm not a gamer) are upstanding citizens and so I'm not going to read about you in the newspaper for going on rampage. But there's a connection between (1) violent media and (2) mental illness and (3) guns, and it seems that a few bad people who have INDIVIDUALLY connected the three dots.

    Consider that what were known as the Motion Picture Code, and the Comics Code, were both abandoned by the late 60s in favour of what became a rating system. So lots of forum members grew up watching movies that were made under this code, and many more have seen these films on TV, e.g., Casablanca, which itself was edited in several ways to meet the code. So we oldies weren't shaped by blood and gore in films and tv; and gaming didn't exist.

    Then violent gaming DID exist, by around 1990. So now we have several generations who have grown up ONLY after the Codes and DURING violent gaming. Now consider that SCHOOL shooting rampages worldwide have VIRTUALLY ALL been committed by boys and men in their teens and 20s (Wikipedia's listing of school shootings); virtually ALL were committed since the 60s; and virtually all committed suicide.

    I ask you to put all this together with a form of psychopathy called "narcissism" (my ex-stepdaughter is a narcissist): among the several signs of narcissistic behaviour are

    • (Narcissism) always involves the exploitation of others without regard for their feelings or interests.
    • Often the other is in a subservient position where resistance would be difficult or even impossible.
    • Narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves.
    • Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all.


    Now put such symptoms together with many hours of violent gaming, even someone else's gun, and the most vulnerable kind of victims -- schoolies. Then realise that narcissists do not seek mental help because "they are not the problem"; it is recognised that the only way to keep a narcissist on track is by setting limits. Good parenting, you say? Post 16 y/o, that ship has sailed, and adults aren't going to be dragged into psychiatrists' offices; illegal. That leaves us with DENYING such people this kind of "entertainment" (La Pierre called it "pornography"). Pandora's box is already open, though.

    We're smart enough to show the kinds of people who host The View (it's on my TV as I type this) that their business is one of the root causes of this situation that all Americans find themselves in; and that focusing on Americans' gun ownership rights is simply their diverting attention away from that. If we can't successfully do this, then ultimately the 2nd Amendment is going to be infringed, because noone's making the connection for the average person who spends NO time thinking about the significance of the ten amendments to their daily lives.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member
    Array OPFOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Nomad
    Posts
    4,709
    Murder and violent crime rates have been decreasing during the decades that violent video games have been increasing in popularity. The murder rate was higher in 1960 than it was in 2011. This "rock solid connection" seems to fall apart under the most cursory examination of the actual statistics.

    There are hundreds of thousands to several million narcissists in the US (depending on the study), and only a tiny, tiny fraction of them commit mass murder - and there really isn't much we as a society can do about it.

    The fault of criminal activity lies with the criminal. Not with the tool, not with the games he played or the movies he watched, not with anything else. Blaming video games or movies, without looking at the broader societal issues, is just as knee-jerk and just as unhelpful, in my opinion, as is blaming the gun.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #3
    Senior Member Array Darrow75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    St. Petersburg, FL
    Posts
    609
    This again? Great.

  5. #4
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    10,133
    You are right. I am smarter than this.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  6. #5
    Distinguished Member Array chuckusaret's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    SE Florida
    Posts
    1,627
    Man, (Narcissism) always involves the exploitation of others without regard for their feelings or interests.
    Often the other is in a subservient position where resistance would be difficult or even impossible.
    Narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves.
    Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all.

    You just described Obama.
    US Army 1953-1977

    ‘‘We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts — not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.’’
    — Abraham Lincoln

  7. #6
    Senior Member Array Alex_C's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,082
    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    The fault of criminal activity lies with the criminal. Not with the tool, not with the games he played or the movies he watched, not with anything else. Blaming video games or movies, without looking at the broader societal issues, is just as knee-jerk and just as unhelpful, in my opinion, as is blaming the gun.
    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    I was disappointed when the NRA started passing the buck when it made it's commentry on the Sandy Hook shooting and I utterly reject the "Don't blame the thing I support, blame this other thing" attitude many people are adopting rather than blaming the sick psychopaths that conceive of and carry out these heinous acts of violence.
    wmhawth and cmdrdredd like this.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array rednichols's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    585
    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Murder and violent crime rates have been decreasing during the decades that violent video games have been increasing in popularity. The murder rate was higher in 1960 than it was in 2011. This "rock solid connection" seems to fall apart under the most cursory examination of the actual statistics.

    The fault of criminal activity lies with the criminal. Not with the tool, not with the games he played or the movies he watched, not with anything else. Blaming video games or movies, without looking at the broader societal issues, is just as knee-jerk and just as unhelpful, in my opinion, as is blaming the gun.
    And a cursory examination is what you gave it. My post is about mass shootings at schools, not crime rates. And your talk about "blaming" is diversionary; my post is clearly not about blame, but about "cause and effect", and in a very small population. Nor is there anything "knee jerk" about it; I deduced this before NRA.

    Further, there are very extreme ranges of narcissism and of narcissistic personality disorder, that obviate your "millions" argument. You should have read up about this, before shooting back a reply.

    If mine had been a scholarly presentation, complete with citations, it would've been too long for this forum. Mea culpa, I expected more of established members; perhaps this really IS just a gun enthusiasts' site, even though we're grappling with complex issues like the 2nd Amendment?

    Good luck with your fight for the right, to keep and bear arms. If forum members are going to put the blinders on, and just dig in their heels on the 2nd Amendment, then they'll be as bad as the antis. We can be smarter than that.

  9. #8
    Member Array Daddydon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    395

    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_C View Post
    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    I was disappointed when the NRA started passing the buck when it made it's commentry on the Sandy Hook shooting and I utterly reject the "Don't blame the thing I support, blame this other thing" attitude many people are adopting rather than blaming the sick psychopaths that conceive of and carry out these heinous acts of violence.
    Not only is it the smoke screen tactics that are a problem, but also the gun-free zones. All the mass shootings happen in these places...I think the fbi indicated this years ago that they were a bad idea. Anyone else know about this?

  10. #9
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    880
    I think it would actually make more sense to ban guns than it would to ban video games. After all, we do live in a semi-capitalist country with free speech and the ability to pursue happiness. Why shouldn't somebody be allowed to produce video games? And why shouldn't one be allowed to purchase video games?

    None of these issues are complicated.

  11. #10
    Member Array Daddydon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    395
    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    I think it would actually make more sense to ban guns than it would to ban video games. After all, we do live in a semi-capitalist country with free speech and the ability to pursue happiness. Why shouldn't somebody be allowed to produce video games? And why shouldn't one be allowed to purchase video games?

    None of these issues are complicated.
    I believe one of our founding fathers said something to the effect of....
    "Those who give up liberty for security deserve neither."
    I think they knew what they were talking about and I think they made the constitution the way it is for situations just like this.

  12. #11
    Distinguished Member Array chuckusaret's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    SE Florida
    Posts
    1,627
    Quote Originally Posted by Daddydon View Post
    I believe one of our founding fathers said something to the effect of....
    "Those who give up liberty for security deserve neither."
    I think they knew what they were talking about and I think they made the constitution the way it is for situations just like this.
    Isn't it very sad that the forefathers of this once great nation had the foresight to draft a Constitution followed by the Bill of Rights that served as the backbone of our nation, only to be willfully destroyed by the present administration. But to make it even worse we are doing nothing to stop them.

    Yes, I believe it was Ben Franklin. "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
    US Army 1953-1977

    ‘‘We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts — not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.’’
    — Abraham Lincoln

  13. #12
    Distinguished Member Array Nmuskier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Upper Michigan
    Posts
    1,399
    Read this:
    On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society: Dave Grossman: 9780316040938: Amazon.com: Books
    U.S. Army psychiatrist who trained soldiers and LE to kill. He understands conditioned response. He's collected studies of media on the adolescent brain. He's collected mass killing data over the decades, along with the spread of multi media.

    THIS is the authority on mass violence in modern society.

  14. #13
    Member Array Shrike6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Va.
    Posts
    217
    Quote Originally Posted by rednichols View Post
    I started shooting as a 13 year old, joined the gun industry via the holster industry at 20 after studying 2 years to become an LE officer: so I joined the industry because I approve of guns, not the other way 'round. On this forum I use my real name, I have my creds posted in various forms, and so I'm not trying to poke a snake with a very long stick. But:

    When I wrote originally to NRA about the connection I see between game and film violence, it's because I believe it's a rock-solid connection, and it needs to be faced.

    We're smarter than this situation we're reacting to, aren't we? So rather than playing a defensive game about labels like "assault rifle", etc., I feel we should be on offense by hammering the connection between "monkey see, monkey do" and violent films and games.

    I acknowledge that there are avid gamers on this forum, and that you all (I'm not a gamer) are upstanding citizens and so I'm not going to read about you in the newspaper for going on rampage. But there's a connection between (1) violent media and (2) mental illness and (3) guns, and it seems that a few bad people who have INDIVIDUALLY connected the three dots.

    Consider that what were known as the Motion Picture Code, and the Comics Code, were both abandoned by the late 60s in favour of what became a rating system. So lots of forum members grew up watching movies that were made under this code, and many more have seen these films on TV, e.g., Casablanca, which itself was edited in several ways to meet the code. So we oldies weren't shaped by blood and gore in films and tv; and gaming didn't exist.

    Then violent gaming DID exist, by around 1990. So now we have several generations who have grown up ONLY after the Codes and DURING violent gaming. Now consider that SCHOOL shooting rampages worldwide have VIRTUALLY ALL been committed by boys and men in their teens and 20s (Wikipedia's listing of school shootings); virtually ALL were committed since the 60s; and virtually all committed suicide.

    I ask you to put all this together with a form of psychopathy called "narcissism" (my ex-stepdaughter is a narcissist): among the several signs of narcissistic behaviour are

    • (Narcissism) always involves the exploitation of others without regard for their feelings or interests.
    • Often the other is in a subservient position where resistance would be difficult or even impossible.
    • Narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves.
    • Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all.


    Now put such symptoms together with many hours of violent gaming, even someone else's gun, and the most vulnerable kind of victims -- schoolies. Then realise that narcissists do not seek mental help because "they are not the problem"; it is recognised that the only way to keep a narcissist on track is by setting limits. Good parenting, you say? Post 16 y/o, that ship has sailed, and adults aren't going to be dragged into psychiatrists' offices; illegal. That leaves us with DENYING such people this kind of "entertainment" (La Pierre called it "pornography"). Pandora's box is already open, though.

    We're smart enough to show the kinds of people who host The View (it's on my TV as I type this) that their business is one of the root causes of this situation that all Americans find themselves in; and that focusing on Americans' gun ownership rights is simply their diverting attention away from that. If we can't successfully do this, then ultimately the 2nd Amendment is going to be infringed, because noone's making the connection for the average person who spends NO time thinking about the significance of the ten amendments to their daily lives.
    I could not agree with you more. Our kids become desensitized to violence, and accepting of violence, through hours and hours of violent video games. These take the place of normal human contact and in susceptible kids lead to trouble.
    Kids need to spend more time playing and interacting with other kids and not with the bloody world of gaming.
    A good, strong, 2 parent home life with morals and values also helps.
    Certified Infidel

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    riverview, fl
    Posts
    765
    The same broken unit that would shoot up a school is the same broken unit that would blow up a school is the same broken unit that would drive a car into a crowd at school is the same broken unit that would poison a school, with or without video games, Ozzy Osbourne, etc.

    I believe we're gonna find the underlying cause is that these are conducted by broken units that the psych/med industry believes can be fixed w doses of psychosomatic drugs that have been rushed into production and use.
    Some of these drugs have not had the time to be properly field tested (ie, results on 'next' generation, offspring of parents given these drugs).

    And, evil is evil. Some of this is gonna happen, no matter what gets regulated.

    dan

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array 1MoreGoodGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas
    Posts
    5,883
    Personal responsibility and accountability.

    Too many people are not taking responsibility for their own actions and society is not holding these individuals accountable for their own action.

    Stop trying to blame someone or something else.

    All actions have consequences...some consequences are good and some consequences are bad and some consequences fall somewhere in-between the two.

    It is our duty to hold the members of our society accountable for their actions by ensuring that they experience the appropriate consequences. This is how people learn and grow as an individual. This is how people learn to function within a society. This is how people learn to interact appropriately with others. This is how people learn right from wrong.
    Clodbert, cmdrdredd and Hoganbeg like this.
    Regards,
    1MoreGoodGuy
    NRA Life Member
    GOA Life Member


    Behave Like Someone Who is Determined to be FREE!

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •