Property v. human rights redux

This is a discussion on Property v. human rights redux within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I think property rights DO trump the right to carry a gun. The Second Amendment is a protection against the government. It says that the ...

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Thread: Property v. human rights redux

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    I think property rights DO trump the right to carry a gun. The Second Amendment is a protection against the government. It says that the government canít disarm you. It doesnít have anything to do with what you can do on another personís property. I as an individual can required that you disarm to come onto my property.

    Also, I think the difference between the rules related to your home and business is a small one. It doesnít matter if you are a racists, sexist or whatever, you have the right to exclude ANYONE for ANY REASON from your home. It is your castle.

    With a business, I believe that you should not be allowed to exclude people from your business property based on anything they cannot change. For example, people cannot change their ethnic group. To bar someone from your business because of skin color is wrong and I support laws to keep this from happening.

    But for anything else, the owner should have the right to operate as he sees fit. I donít like cigarette smoke and I wonít hang out at a restaurant or bar where there is smoking allowed. BUT, I fully support the right of the owner to decide if smoking is allowed. That should be his choice. Mine is whether I patronize the place.

    Same thing with carrying a gun. If I am a rabid sheep who is scared to death of guns and I own a business, it should be my right to ban firearms from that business if I so choose. Besides, I donít want to help anyone financially if they are anti gun so I want to know who bans guns. I wonít shop there.

    But I will always support their right to decide the rules in place related to their own property.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zundfolge View Post
    I would also contend that private property owners should have the right to disallow Blacks, Iraqis, Females or Muslims on their property too.

    The problem isn't that anti-discrimination laws should also protect us who CCW, the problem is that no matter how well intentioned, anti-discrimination laws are anti-freedom.
    Agreed.

    Agreed.

    Could there be a Libertarian here besides me???
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Wayne's Avatar
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    By your logic, you should be able to carry on planes, but that isn't the case.
    Actually, it wasn't until the 1960's that you were allowed to carry on a plane.

    Also, a plane is a bad example because it is like the postal service where the government is making the rules for the owners of the planes.

    The last time that I flew it was by charter and the pilots didn't only not care (the word mind gives the wrong idea what I wanted to say) that we were armed, they were as well. They truly owned their property and since we didn't have to go though the main airport, only to the hanger, the government wasn't involved.

    The way I see it, property rights don't trump my right to life. I believe that the one right that does trump all others is the right to life. I choose to use a firearm (as well as other weapons such as my knife) to ensure, or to at least even the odds, that my right to life is maintained.

    As for not going to some of the places, there are cases when it is just not possible to shop elsewhere, medical services in a hospital comes to mind.

    Just because I have to use the services that specialist provide doesn't mean that I need to remove any rights that I have in order to do so.

    Wayne
    Last edited by Wayne; November 14th, 2006 at 01:29 PM.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    I think if we were allowed to carry on planes what happened on 9-11-01 wouldn't have happened. Why? Criminals prefer unarmed victims.

    ETA: I think we should be allowed to carry anywhere in the US except where private citizens (homes) or private businesses post or wish to disallow.
    Last edited by Tubby45; November 14th, 2006 at 01:24 PM. Reason: Content
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Zundfolge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freakshow10mm View Post
    Could there be a Libertarian here besides me???
    RLC Republican ... so pretty close

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freakshow10mm View Post
    Could there be a Libertarian here besides me???
    Card carrying.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
    As for being a "citizen" qualifying as a group, the answer is NO, it does not qualify as a group under the law. Why? Because our laws pertain equally to citizens and non-citizens alike when it comes to things like civil rights. A foreigner has as much protection under the law as a citizen.
    OK I get that citizen is not a group, but I wasn't considering the non-citizen as excluded. A group is actually a subgroup of the citizens (black, female, etc.). While groups are primarily made up of people who cannot change their group status, arguably not all are (sexual orientation, creed, religion), others are not obviously in a group upon casual observation (ethnicity, handicapped, religion). I think some slick lawyer could argue that "legally armed citizen" is a group, just not sure how successful he would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zundfolge View Post
    I would also contend that private property owners should have the right to disallow Blacks, Iraqis, Females or Muslims on their property too.

    The problem isn't that anti-discrimination laws should also protect us who CCW, the problem is that no matter how well intentioned, anti-discrimination laws are anti-freedom.
    I see your point, let free market determine if discrimination works, however some groups need protection. I'm thinking of handicapped. I doubt any business would fail if they did not have handicap access, but do the handicapped not need accessible features (not trying to convert this thread to a handicap rights issue, though)?
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    I see your point, let free market determine if discrimination works, however some groups need protection. I'm thinking of handicapped. I doubt any business would fail if they did not have handicap access, but do the handicapped not need accessible features (not trying to convert this thread to a handicap rights issue, though)?
    The idea is that some business will offer the access and then corner the market on those customers. Therefore all businesses will offer it to compete.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

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