Boston Police State Failed - George Donnelly

This is a discussion on Boston Police State Failed - George Donnelly within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Very interesting article regarding the tactics used by law enforcement during the search for Tsarnaev in Boston last week. Boston Tried a Police State and ...

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    Distinguished Member Array USPnTX's Avatar
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    Boston Police State Failed - George Donnelly

    Very interesting article regarding the tactics used by law enforcement during the search for Tsarnaev in Boston last week.


    Boston Tried a Police State and it Failed | George Donnelly - Arm your Mind for Liberty
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    Everybody has an opinion, whether it's full of baloney or not.
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    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
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    VIP Member Array Kennydale's Avatar
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    Part of me wanted this KID caught to be sent to some dark damp cellar in Eastern Europe for Water Boarding. But the rest of me was just so irritated. Between the scenes coming out of Watertown, MA and those from Katrina in NOLA that had police agencies just rounding up weapons on the spot. it is a clear deterioration of our rights. I want to send a letter/email to ALL my reps in the state of Texas. I want them on record from the state house and senate, not only promising but SWEARING TO G-D, that this will not happen here. I have spoken to a few people in Texas, i don't know if it is just bravado, but some will defend their homes against any invasion, whether they wear a badge or not.

    I want our Public officials on record about this.
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    They went in, searched for the suspect, and left. Haven't heard any reports of anyone arrested because they left a joint in the ashtray and the cops saw it, no reports of any weapons being seized, haven't heard of any issues with the search at all except from those with their panties in a wad and weren't there. My thought is the neighborhood was glad to have the scumbag out of there and life return back to normal.

    But hey, next time you need the cops at your place in a hurry, don't get upset when they say, "We'll be there to help you as soon as we can get a warrant."

    Life ain't always fair--get over it.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    He made an interesting point that only after the house confinement was lifted and citizens were allowed out did "a citizen" find the suspect. All the paramilitary police didn't but an alert and aware citizen did. Something to think about.

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    VIP Member Array Brass63's Avatar
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    In many ways I have to agree with the author's thoughts.
    I too don't understand all the over-the-top praise for the police/FBI.
    Now I'm not saying that they were in anyway incompetent. They weren't.
    But I didn't see a lot of evidence of super effective tactics.
    In both confrontations it is was a cilivian who provided them with the critical intel.
    And in the shootout with the pair...these two self-trained brothers gave as much as they got.
    Suspending our Constitutional rights as easily as the authorities should give us all pause.
    And it does give us a glimpse into why so many politicians are trying to outlaw ARs.
    The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.

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    I agree with the article for the most part, I was actually quite disappointed at how Boston turned into a police state for nearly 24 hours.

    I know some will say, "well it's for everyone's safety." But really, is it? What good did it accomplish? He was caught outside the perimeter, and by a civilian who noticed him after people were let back out of their homes. Our little parade of SWAT/military did little to nothing to alleviate the situation but rather infringed tons of innocents' rights. Perhaps in a more extreme situation (say something similar to the European bombings and air strikes of WWII), I could maybe understand the need but this was all for a single 19-year old kid.

    Yes, he was dangerous and yes he potentially had bombs. I know it sounds scary, but we can't let fear rule our lives otherwise what's the point of living? We all carry for the same reasons, to protect ourselves and our families. We know that the day may come where we might have to use our weapon against threats like this one. We carry so that we don't have to live in fear and cower defenselessly. I'm not saying those carrying should have joined the manhunt, but just go about your business with your SA on high-alert. Sure, maybe you can keep the kids home, but to shut down the entire city is another matter all together.

    Giving up our liberties for "safety" is really not worth it and our founding fathers would all agree. Yes, I do think that in some very extreme cases, it's understandable that we'd give up things like the Fourth Amendment, but this not one of them.

    EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I felt like it was a ******* match between law enforcement and the suspects. It had little to do about actual citizen safety and more about, "getting revenge on a cop killer by cops and the government, using every means necessary." I couldn't help but notice the parallels with the Dorner situation in how it escalated so quickly. Dorner allegedly killed a couple of cops and got a $1 million bounty overnight. With Big Bear on high-alert, the numerous checkpoints and lawlessly shooting at random innocents whose cars were not even close in description was "an unfortunate misunderstanding." It's just ridiculous what happens (and is let to happen without consequences) in these situations. Again, in the Dorner scenario, it was a citizen that escaped hostage and gave away his position, not the numerous officers and paramilitary teams conducting search.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    They went in, searched for the suspect, and left. Haven't heard any reports of anyone arrested because they left a joint in the ashtray and the cops saw it, no reports of any weapons being seized, haven't heard of any issues with the search at all except from those with their panties in a wad and weren't there. My thought is the neighborhood was glad to have the scumbag out of there and life return back to normal.

    But hey, next time you need the cops at your place in a hurry, don't get upset when they say, "We'll be there to help you as soon as we can get a warrant."

    Life ain't always fair--get over it.
    They pounded on the door until someone answered it, and them forced everyone inside out at gunpoint, where they were searched. They also searched the house.

    They did all this *without* any of the following:
    1) any information indicating the suspect was inside, or
    2) any information indicating that any person present had broken the law, or
    3) a warrant (which they couldn't have gotten without either of the above).

    They violated the civil rights of dozens (maybe hundreds) of people, and you're not only excusing it, you're suggesting that having the temerity to *object* to those actions should result in losing the limited, after the fact, protection offered by having the police in the first place?

    Really?

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    Wow. Another police state/police bashing thread. This is what, number five or six now?

    I'll set this one out.

    By the way, Sean Collier's funeral was today.
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    VIP Member Array Kennydale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEF View Post
    Wow. Another police state/police bashing thread. This is what, number five or six now?

    I'll set this one out.

    By the way, Sean Collier's funeral was today.
    I don't think anyone is bashing cops. They follow orders from the top. I respect the LEOs out there. But you cant tell me something was wrong with this picture. If you can't see that Boston became a police state for 24 hours, i don't know what to saw to convince you that according to the CONSTITUTION this should not have gone down this way.
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    Member Array John Luttrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass63 View Post
    In many ways I have to agree with the author's thoughts.
    I too don't understand all the over-the-top praise for the police/FBI.
    Now I'm not saying that they were in anyway incompetent. They weren't.
    But I didn't see a lot of evidence of super effective tactics.
    In both confrontations it is was a cilivian who provided them with the critical intel.
    And in the shootout with the pair...these two self-trained brothers gave as much as they got.
    Suspending our Constitutional rights as easily as the authorities should give us all pause.
    And it does give us a glimpse into why so many politicians are trying to outlaw ARs.
    I wouldn't put a whole lot of praise into the performance of these two nut jobs, as anytime you are dealing with radicals, who would love nothing more than to die for their beliefs, you are at a tactical disadvantage from the start. As for the police response, they did their job and did it well; the civilian collateral damage could have been high, had the first shoot out/chase happened during the day time.

    I fail to see where anyone's rights were trampled that day, we also must remember that things are different in the city; city folk call 911, out in the country, we are 911.
    John Luttrell

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    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    The system worked...

    ...citizen support and LEOs working within the law of the land solved the problem...no surprise to some of us...
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    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    There are some interesting points brought out in this article........
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
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    Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791 and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snub44 View Post
    The system worked...

    ...citizen support and LEOs working within the law of the land solved the problem...no surprise to some of us...
    Being dragged out of your home at gunpoint is your version of citizen support? LEO working within the law? I may have slept through most of 12th grade government, but I remember something about searches and seizures. I saw something about warrants on Law and Order.

    Complete system failure!

    Quote Originally Posted by Voice View Post
    They pounded on the door until someone answered it, and them forced everyone inside out at gunpoint, where they were searched. They also searched the house.

    They did all this *without* any of the following:
    1) any information indicating the suspect was inside, or
    2) any information indicating that any person present had broken the law, or
    3) a warrant (which they couldn't have gotten without either of the above).

    They violated the civil rights of dozens (maybe hundreds) of people, and you're not only excusing it, you're suggesting that having the temerity to *object* to those actions should result in losing the limited, after the fact, protection offered by having the police in the first place?

    Really?
    ^^^
    That about sums it up.

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    Member Array ItalianSteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snub44 View Post
    The system worked...

    ...citizen support and LEOs working within the law of the land solved the problem...no surprise to some of us...
    Well the outcome was not as bad as it maybe could have been, but I don't exactly think the exaggeration of "force" was necessary. At the end of the day it was a teenager with a long gun and potentially more improvised, low-grade explosives. Waco nor Ruby Ridge had this level of SWAT/paramilitary coverage. It was absolute crazy and unprecedented.

    I don't know if I would call it "citizen support" as much as it was "citizen coercion." Nobody appreciates being ripped out of their own homes, at gunpoint, to be searched while even more guns are pointed at them. That is exactly what happened, no warrant, and in many cases no reasonable suspicion. While any one of those citizens would have the right to decline the search, would it be wise for them? Even the most staunch defenders of the Constitution wouldn't dare, and that is why I say it is coercion. Of course none of those people were trying to harbor the suspects, there was no malice, but also no real choice.

    What scares me about this event is what kind of precedent does this set for the rest of the country. Are we being slowly but surely conditioned to accept this behavior from our government? TSA in the airports is disgusting enough, I can't imagine these events expanding their reach. I have no problem with law enforcement doing their job and undoubtedly citizens do help (and one did to capture the last suspect), but there is also the rights of the people and it's a dangerous game once we start stepping on them.

    Basically, Boston looked like the furthest thing from America on that day and that scares me.

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