We need counter-arguments to these...

This is a discussion on We need counter-arguments to these... within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; It's fine for us to tell the "uninformed" that the factoid of "90% of the people want universal background checks" is false...but when they see ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array RicT's Avatar
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    We need counter-arguments to these...

    It's fine for us to tell the "uninformed" that the factoid of "90% of the people want universal background checks" is false...but when they see things like any one of the polls mentioned below, it's hard to make that argument stick. We need a valid, statistical counter to these figures...anyone got anything like that?

    ================================================

    The January Pew poll found 85 percent of all respondents in favor of making private gun sales and sales at gun shows subject to background checks, with comparable support from Republicans, Democrats and independents, Pew said. The margin of error for the entire sample was 2.9 percentage points.

    The CBS/New York Times poll indicated that 92 percent of all the respondents favor background checks for all potential gun buyers. The poll had an overall margin of error of three percentage points.

    PolitiFact Georgia, looking into a similar claim about support for universal checks, noted a Fox News poll conducted Jan. 15-17, 2013, of 1,008 registered voters. Ninety one percent of respondents said they favor "requiring criminal background checks on all gun buyers, including those buying at gun shows and private sales."

    A Quinnipiac University national survey of 772 registered voters, taken Jan. 30 through Feb. 4, 2013, found 92 percent supporting background checks for all gun buyers. The survey, pointed out by Everhart, had a margin of error of 2.3 percentage points.

    A subsequent Quinnipiac University survey, taken of 1,944 registered voters from Feb. 27, 2013 through March 4, 2013, found 88 percent in favor of background checks for all gun buyers. The poll had a margin of error of 2.2 percentage points.

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  3. #2
    Ex Member Array Manderinobyebye's Avatar
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    The anti gun people put these out,and they know better.They don't care.If they did,they wouldn't put misleading poll numbers out to begin with.It's a waste of time.

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    Being in favor of something and demanding its implementation are two vastly different things, even if only by degree. For example. I am generally against smoking. I don't want it done in my house, in my garage, in my vehicle or in my close proximity. If asked about smoking in those contexts on a poll, I would answer accordingly. That said, I am not in favor of excessive taxes on tobacco products, their ban, or even more stringent regulation. Those who do favor bans, more regulation and heavier taxation could and likely would take my answers to such a poll as proof positive that I demand action against tobacco now. Same thing with guns and polls.
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    Member Array keboostman's Avatar
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    I believe the polls are accurate and reflect the will of the American people. The best counter argument is probably one citing unintended consequences, but I think universal background checks will come. It is a matter of time.

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    VIP Member Array joker1's Avatar
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    Polls should be taken at a voting booth where you must show valid identification proving you are the one and only you, citizen in good standing, and currently in possesion of a pulse.

    Anything done over the internet can be tampered with and made to go any direction they want.
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  7. #6
    Senior Member Array sensei2's Avatar
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    asking if one favors UBC's without mentioning the fine print, like, "permanent records kept of every purchase, which could easily lead to a national registry of guns and their owners", and the $25 to $150 fee (in D.C., i'm told), even for transfers between family members, is like asking Americans, "are you in favor of world peace?", without mentioning the rights we'd have to give up, and the imposition of laws and regulations from governments not our own.

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    Senior Member Array Gaius's Avatar
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    Sure. Put this thing in context. According to a Gallup poll of about a week or so ago, only about 4% of the population thinks gun control is a major issue at all. So of that 90% number thrown around, very few actually really care one way or another.
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  9. #8
    Member Array tele_pathic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Being in favor of something and demanding its implementation are two vastly different things, even if only by degree. For example. I am generally against smoking. I don't want it done in my house, in my garage, in my vehicle or in my close proximity. If asked about smoking in those contexts on a poll, I would answer accordingly. That said, I am not in favor of excessive taxes on tobacco products, their ban, or even more stringent regulation. Those who do favor bans, more regulation and heavier taxation could and likely would take my answers to such a poll as proof positive that I demand action against tobacco now. Same thing with guns and polls.
    Very well said. And I agree 100%.

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array Kilowatt3's Avatar
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    Part of the problem has to do with the phrasing of the questions:

    "Do you favor (select one):

    A) Uniform Background Checks for firearms purchases,

    or

    B) The continued slaughter of innocent children?"
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    We need a valid, statistical counter to these figures...anyone got anything like that?

    The January Pew poll found 85 percent of all respondents in favor of making private gun sales and sales at gun shows subject to background checks, with comparable support from Republicans, Democrats and independents, Pew said. The margin of error for the entire sample was 2.9 percentage points.
    Link to a edited/redacted version of the report: click.


    According to Pew Research themselves, this Jan 9-13 2013 poll was done in this manner:

    About the Survey -- Gun Control survey Jan 9-13 2013

    The analysis in this report is based on telephone interviews conducted January 9-13, 2013 among a national sample of 1,502 adults, 18 years of age or older, living in all 50 U.S. states and the District of Columbia (752 respondents were interviewed on a landline telephone, and 750 were interviewed on a cell phone, including 369 who had no landline telephone).

    The survey was conducted by interviewers at Princeton Data Source under the direction of Princeton Survey Research Associates International.

    A combination of landline and cell phone random digit dial samples were used ...

    Interviews were conducted in English and Spanish.

    Respondents in the landline sample were selected by randomly asking for the youngest adult male or female who is now at home. Interviews in the cell sample were conducted with the person who answered the phone, if that person was an adult 18 years of age or older.

    The combined landline and cell phone sample are weighted using an iterative technique that matches gender, age, education, race, Hispanic origin and nativity and region to parameters from the 2011 Census Bureau’s American Community Survey and population density to parameters from the Decennial Census.

    The sample also is weighted to match current patterns of telephone status and relative usage of landline and cell phones (for those with both), based on extrapolations from the 2012 National Health Interview Survey.

    The weighting procedure also accounts for the fact that respondents with both landline and cell phones have a greater probability of being included in the combined sample and adjusts for household size among respondents with a landline phone.

    Sampling errors and statistical tests of significance take into account the effect of weighting. The following table shows the sample sizes and the error attributable to sampling that would be expected at the 95% level of confidence for different groups in the survey ...

    Note that the individual gun policy questions on this survey (Q42) were each asked only of about half of respondents (one form); as a result, the margin of error for those questions is about double than for questions asked of the entire sample. Sample sizes and sampling errors for other subgroups are available upon request.

    In addition to sampling error, one should bear in mind that question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of opinion polls.



    Questions that I have about the survey methods include:

    • Pew ostensibly ordered the poll, but it was apparently farmed out to a group that farmed it out. Unknown how reliable those groups are on such polling.

    • The youngest person answering as selected for the poll, introducing bias into the survey simply based on that. A strong case could be made that respect for the protection and upholding of the Constitution and resistance to the liberty-haters' messaging might be stronger in other, older, presumably better-educated and differently situated socio-economic groups.

    • Unknown whether filtering questions were posed to clearly identify whether the person had been subjected to much of this anti-liberty messaging in the past 3mos, past year, past decade. A strong case could be made that the youngest segments of the population might tend to be less aware of defensive weapon utility and more susceptible to anti-liberty messaging in the first place.

    • Couldn't find the actual questions and wording, from that Jan 9-13 survey. Who knows how bad the biases were, or where.

    • Unknown what the spread was of urban to suburban to rural to remote respondents was, and how this compares to the census maps.

    • Unknown what, if any, specific steps were taken to eliminate biases from the methods. All we've heard, basically, is that ~90% of people support universal checks ... and nothing more.

    • Pew indicates the gun policy related questions were only asked of roughly half the respondents.
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  12. #11
    Member Array thephanatik's Avatar
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    We can argue about skewed polls until we are blue in the face, but I don't think they are really that far off. Looking at the largest organization supporting gun owners; The NRA has about 5 million members, while the population of the US is 310 million. That's about 1.6 percent of the population are NRA members. Obviously there are plenty of people that aren't NRA members that don't support expanded background checks and there are NRA members that support expanded background checks.

    The easiest counter-argument was already posted: Gun control isn't a priority with almost anyone in the country. Congress can only do so much and most people want them to focus on fixing our economy.

    If you want a more in-depth discussion, you can talk about the actual implementation of extended/universal background checks. There is no way to actually prove someone sold someone else a firearm without it being a sting operation or having a gun registry of all the firearms in the US. Sting operations are going to be as effective as they have been in winning our war on drugs and Canada's gun registry worked so great they repealed it after the cost exploded to about 33 times the initial estimate.
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  13. #12
    Member Array cbthedookie's Avatar
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    I agree with OP in that clear responses are called for.

    The intellectually correct response is that the bill of rights was written to protect INDIVIDUAL rights against a convenient majority or government tyranny - think religious persecution. Such a response will in all likelihood not resonate with those who receive a substantial amount of their well being via government subsidy.

    Maybe there is a way to work in American Idol into a response... Self Defense Shooting with the Stars, anyone?




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  14. #13
    Senior Member Array Alex_C's Avatar
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    The correct response is the one Rand Paul gave.

    "The bill of rights is not subject to polls".
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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    100% of the people who wrote The Constitution said, "Shall Not Be Infringed."
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  16. #15
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    The only thing a Universal Background check will do is make criminals of a lot of hereto law abiding citizens.
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