Some questions to put antis on the defensive next time.

Some questions to put antis on the defensive next time.

This is a discussion on Some questions to put antis on the defensive next time. within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Some times it is better to get the person in the argument to be on the defensive. So next time just use asking questions to ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array Bryan's Avatar
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    Some questions to put antis on the defensive next time.

    Some times it is better to get the person in the argument to be on the defensive. So next time just use asking questions to make them think instead of stating out with facts off the bat.

    1. When is Self defence not a legitimate reason to own a weapon? So hunting is the only legitimate reason? If there so many guns in the home then why is there not an epidemic of deaths nationwide(get then to justify thier numbers)? How long dose it take for police to arrive at a scene? How would you stop someone from hurting you (not robbing) if you were alone with no police to intervene? Dose owning or handling any specific item make you inherently evil or want to do bad things(list some mundane thing that they are taking for granted)?

    2. When did the 2nd amendment become a "special interest"? Dose the military have the only right to redress the government and install marshall law like in some eastern countries? When the democratic party abandon "every man politics" for elitism? Why is it that mostly the very rich want to disarm you when the opposition (pro gun/self defence) is mostly normal middle class people like you or me?

    3. If we give in to evil (by doing nothing) don't we in effect condone it? Dose god not want self defence(quot the Bible's references to bearing arms/swords)? If you don't wish to stop someone from taking your life then how will the BG be stopped eventually?

    That's all I have at the moment So if you have any others you would like to add feel free. You get the gist of the tactical arguments. Get them to think about things instead of a knee jerk reaction.
    -Diplomacy: The art of saying nice dogie until you can find a rock.
    -The truth is a three edged sword.
    -Your brain is your primary weapon everything else is just a tool.
    -When the only tool you have is a hammer then everything starts to look like a nail.


  2. #2
    Member Array Bando's Avatar
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    What brought this about? I'm not flaming, just curious. I never get in discussions like these because I don't tell anyone I carry. If you know I carry, you are:

    A. My wife.
    B. Already carry yourself.
    C. Are currently being shot at.


    If I was found out(never have been) I would explain that I have a right and a license, and do not wish to argue about either.
    The Problem: When stupid people do stupid things, smart people end up getting killed.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array Wayne's Avatar
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    1. When is Self defence not a legitimate reason to own a weapon?

    That are what police are for and why we pay for them

    So hunting is the only legitimate reason?

    We only say that right now because we cannot win without hunters on our side. Once we get what we want then we will take theirs also, bambi has rights also.

    If there so many guns in the home then why is there not an epidemic of deaths nationwide(get then to justify thier numbers)?

    There are. Don't you read the papers where kids (and yes we consider anyone under 25 a kid) are killed by guns or by accidents in the home. I don't care if it's just one childs death, that is too many.

    How long dose it take for police to arrive at a scene?

    It can take awhile, but if you don't resist and give them what they want, even if it's rape, you are better off than if you have a gun.


    How would you stop someone from hurting you (not robbing) if you were alone with no police to intervene?

    That's not the point, we don't care about ourselves, we only care for the children. Bad things happen, that's life. Also, your life isn't worth more then some one elses.

    Dose owning or handling any specific item make you inherently evil or want to do bad things(list some mundane thing that they are taking for granted)?

    It makes it easier. If you get to that one moment where you are so mad that you want to hurt the other person, a gun just makes it that much easier to do so right then and there. If you don't have a gun on you (or a knife) then the worse that can happen is that they or you get beat up.

    2. When did the 2nd amendment become a "special interest"?

    It always only pertained to the states militia, not to the people.

    Dose the military have the only right to redress the government and install marshall law like in some eastern countries?

    Are you trying to say that the military shouldn't have guns? Or the government? Then how would they protect us. As for marshall law, if it's for the good of the people then it should be done.

    When the democratic party abandon "every man politics" for elitism?

    Well, they do know what is best for us don't they. I mean, if they didn't then why did so many elect them time and again into office.

    Why is it that mostly the very rich want to disarm you when the opposition (pro gun/self defence) is mostly normal middle class people like you or me?

    Well, they got rich by being smart, smarter then the average middle class person. They have education and the average middle class person doesn't, or not much of it in college. They have been taught to look at the big picture, not the small ones that you and I see. So therefore, they know what is best for us.

    3. If we give in to evil (by doing nothing) don't we in effect condone it?

    It depends on what you condone as evil. Some people think that gay people are evil. Some think that abortionist are evil. But it is tolerated and even condoned by the majority of society. Who is to say that they are evil? Maybe they just had a bad childhood, or have been caught up in the far rights policies that keep them poor and unable to get a good job. Who is to judge them when it really isn't their fault. But they wouldn't have been so quick to do such a think if guns weren't so available.

    Dose god not want self defence(quot the Bible's references to bearing arms/swords)?

    Which god? There are more then one you know and none of them say to get a gun. Also, what if you don't believe in god? The majority of the people in the US don't, they kicked out the republicans from office and they were the ones trying to force their god on the people but the people went for the democrats.

    If you don't wish to stop someone from taking your life then how will the BG be stopped eventually?

    That is what the police are paid to do. Also, as I've mentioned, my life isn't worth more then another.

    Okay, I've spoken with enough liberals, pacifists, and other types like that to state that the above answers in bold are a good indication of the answers you would get from them.

    I am pretty good at making an anti logic defense on the subject as I am at making a pro defense for the same.

    Wayne

    By using emotion and what is spoon fed to me via the boob tube every night
    Last edited by Wayne; November 14th, 2006 at 07:50 PM.

  4. #4
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    To me,this type of argueing is non-productive.If anything it only helps their cause. I have better things to do with my time than to try to convince an unconvinceable person. It's like argueing weather the sun is shineing or not.

    I would rather use my time hunting,fishing,shooting,reloading,and all the other things that will increase me and my wifes safety.

    I find that is comforting knowing that the anti's are more concerned about converting me than I them. It shows me what fools they are.

    If injured I wont feel the least bit sorry for them. They are like sheep to the slaughter.-------

  5. #5
    Member Array robinsonre's Avatar
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    We shouldn't be trying to convince the die-hard antis. IMHO that's a futile opinion. What we need to do is get the people that are ON THE FENCE. The folks who are scared of guns but not so scared that they are yet ready to ban them all. If we can pull the folks on the fence to our side rather than push them to the Anti's Side...we will win.
    "Life exists at a level of complexity almost beyond our ability to comprehend. It's a well known fact that if you try to take apart a cat to see how it works one of the first things you have on your hands is a non-working cat" - Douglas Adams

    "All things are governed by law" - Hippocrates

  6. #6
    Member Array AZ Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinsonre View Post
    We shouldn't be trying to convince the die-hard antis. IMHO that's a futile opinion. What we need to do is get the people that are ON THE FENCE. The folks who are scared of guns but not so scared that they are yet ready to ban them all. If we can pull the folks on the fence to our side rather than push them to the Anti's Side...we will win.
    Good point but let's not forget the people that are already on our side of the fence. It's important to encourage gunowners to become active in the political process. I can't reference any studies or hard numbers, but it seems only a small percentage of gunowners are politically active and belong to pro-freedom groups.
    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." - Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188

  7. #7
    Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    Wayne, very good. I see you understand much of the opposition's perspective well enough to argue it in a convincing manner.

    While Bryan felt the queries really only had one correct answer, as you have demonstrated, there is more than one correct answer if the person answering has a different view from the person putting forth the queries.

    It is very hard to make convincing arguments with people who don't hold your same values.

  8. #8
    Member Array Bryan's Avatar
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    I stand corrected, but my argument I guess should have been directed at the on the fencers. Wayne you are very good at playing DA. I might point out though all these questions also have powerful and quantifiable answers. Just not for the emotional or self loathing. Your right that you cannot argue if someone is not listening. Remember that we need peoples good will as we are still a very small part of society.
    -Diplomacy: The art of saying nice dogie until you can find a rock.
    -The truth is a three edged sword.
    -Your brain is your primary weapon everything else is just a tool.
    -When the only tool you have is a hammer then everything starts to look like a nail.

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    I just ask them " Do you want to rape my wife or daughter or something ? " generaly they look startaled , stammer , and say " NO " I then ask them " Well then why are you wanting them to be helpless ? " I have yet to recieve a good answer .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  10. #10
    Member Array Bryan's Avatar
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    P.S. I was just tired of the Antis making stuff up LITERALY at the spur of moment to justify themselves. Always putting me on the defensive. I still think people that think that way are not just of difference opinion but have directed and devious goal. Also if you want to put out the argument point out how they are yelling and other such tactics. Oh wait that really doesnt effect them because one has to acknowledge polite arguments (no name calling) to be taken aback.
    -Diplomacy: The art of saying nice dogie until you can find a rock.
    -The truth is a three edged sword.
    -Your brain is your primary weapon everything else is just a tool.
    -When the only tool you have is a hammer then everything starts to look like a nail.

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array ArmyCop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bando View Post
    What brought this about? I'm not flaming, just curious. I never get in discussions like these because I don't tell anyone I carry. If you know I carry, you are:

    A. My wife.
    B. Already carry yourself.
    C. Are currently being shot at.


    If I was found out(never have been) I would explain that I have a right and a license, and do not wish to argue about either.
    I like your third one - C.
    For God, Family and Country!

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    It is the Bill of Rights, not the Bill of Needs or Bill of Actions to Justify.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array Wayne's Avatar
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    10mm,

    You are correct but, as we already know, the anti's will stand up for and fight for amendments 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 because they believe that they are Rights for the People while they look at the 2nd as either the Right of the Federal Government or, once you put out that the Bill of Rights restrain the Federal Government, they change it to the Right of the State Government(s).

    And they use this (I have spoken with many) because they know that 1) your average person hasn't read the Constitution but have been taught the "cliff notes" in school, or 2) cannot understand the basic concept of what they are reading due to the English language has changed greatly in 200+ years.

    So, they have "won" more of the battles due to the school systems are theirs therefore the "cliff notes" can be changed to whatever they want them to mean. As for the old English style of writing, and the great lack of understanding grammar in general with the children/young adults of today, those who do understand what the meaning really states can spin it into whatever they wish it to state.

    This is the main reason that we are losing, the children/young adults of today just don't understand, won't try to understand, and we've become a country of "cliff notes" with no one really bothering to do any research on their own.

    I really confuse people on different subjects (those that I am interested) by the in-depth knowledge I have of it. As they bring up the "cliff note" versions I bring up the entire version, which they aren't willing to believe and even less willing to research. They feel that the little tidbits that they are fed are the truth and nothing else will change their minds. The main reason that they won't research is due to they DON'T wish to change their minds.

    And that my friends is the main reason that they become hostile when we try to speak with them. We are giving them information that they don't wish to have. So to protect themselves (from the truth) they will engage in emotion and many times outright violence toward those that wish to enlighten them with the truth.

    And it's been this way since the dawn of man. An example would be the people that believed the earth was/is flat. It was so widely believed that people before Columbus were put to death for going against those in power with this truth.

    Believe it or not, there is still a Flat Earth Society:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society

    They even have their own forums:

    http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forums/

    No amount of proof, scientific research, or even if they saw it for themselves would move them away from their belief. The same goes for anti's. Most truly believe that if guns weren't around, or severely limited then they would live in a fuzzy lovely world where no crime, heartache, or death would occur (as you can see, they forget about the dark ages and the ages before that one (if you believe in the Bible as I do, then you see Cain slew Able without the use of a firearm)).

    Those people I feel for, and actually don't blame them entirely (they still have some of the blame).

    The ones that I do blame are the people that know better, like the pelosi's, the brandy's, and the schmer's of the world. They know that it's not going to do any good but they prey upon those who won't take it upon themselves to learn the truth and only take the "cliff notes" that are provided to them or taught to them. These are the people that represent the greatest evils of the world.

    They know better yet they work to give the "people" the same type of "safety" as England and Australia (sp) have now. Or even better, the "safety" that other countries have now, where people are still being killed enmasse' but by their own governments or the criminals that basically run the governments.

    Converting Fence Sitters is a hard (but rewarding when you succeed) job. You have to understand that you have to chip away 12 to 13 years of "cliff notes" provided by government schools and worse if they have ANY years of college. Then you have to chip away at the nightly news broadcasts or the 24-hour a day "cliff notes" by MSNBC, CNN, and other news networks.

    I feel (my personal opinion) that the people of the United States will have to go through some of the terror, dictatorship (by the government(s), and the total loss of Rights before they will attempt to do anything. It may well be too late by then but I feel that most people have gotten such apathy that only total horror will get them moving in the right direction (or back to where the US once was).

    Wayne

  14. #14
    Member Array ibex's Avatar
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    Wayne, I hope you washed your hands after typing post #3...
    "So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause."
    - Senator Padmé Amidala, "Revenge of the Sith"

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    I couldn't say it ANY better than Wayne! BRAVO, well said!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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