No Middle Ground

No Middle Ground

This is a discussion on No Middle Ground within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; My post is prompted by the current legislative construct of weapon permits in Illinois. I see and hear words like (Compromise), not only in Illinois, ...

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  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    No Middle Ground

    My post is prompted by the current legislative construct of weapon permits in Illinois.

    I see and hear words like (Compromise), not only in Illinois, but everywhere the second amendment is being attacked.
    I've even heard the NRA use the word.

    Now; either someone is right or someone is wrong; sorry, I'm not a believer in "middle ground." Middle ground IMO, is where the socialist progressives thrive as they can attack in two directions.

    Many Pro 2A people call the anti's idiots, jerks, deluded etc...
    Numerous politicians who are anti 2A, anti gun, proceed from a position I find incomprehensible.

    1) They TRULY believe in their cause?
    2) They are mentally and clinically unhinged?
    3) They have a far deeper nefarious purpose?

    When all the name calling subsides and our anger is turned to logic, we are left with some VERY disturbing questions.

    1) What is it exactly (They) want to accomplish?
    2) WHY?

    When we look at those last (2) questions, we are left with a few questions ourselves.

    1) Are we being deceived?
    2) Are we fighting the right battle and are we on the right battlefield?
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    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Well, first of all, right or wrong in a moral context is a personal call. There are many issues where folks will find a middle ground because there is no specific right or wrong. On gun issues I am in the former category, I have a very specific view of what is right and wrong.
    Other social issues sometimes need to be defined more precisley. Should all drugs that are illegal now be legalized? For some that is a big yes. For some that is a big no. For many there needs to be a middle groud, compromise, such as only marijuana should be legal.
    So, sometimes a middle ground is just precisely defining a point where people can establish a moral definitive right or wrong.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

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    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Should all drugs that are illegal now be legalized? For some that is a big yes.
    Agreed. On what some might consider a less dangerous front in hindsight was Rock & Roll. For a long time it was considered evil.
    Many felt it eroded morality...many still do.

    Even in that seemingly innocent acceptance of R&R, there is either a better good that sprang from it's acceptability or there is not.

    Perhaps there is no answer. Apparently there is no answer when we look around us at a country deeply divided on these so called "moral" issues.

    Personally, I see it more black & white. We are not a nation of laws, we are supposed to be a nation of people where "we the people" control the laws.
    Sadly, the laws now control us.

    So again I say, I believe we are fighting the wrong enemy and are distracted by the laws.
    gtfoxy likes this.
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

    Do what you can; then do what you must

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    They who are seeking control over the people via criminalizing them are looking for exactly that: a nation of folks who can be more easily controlled by getting "the goods" on them. Ayn Rand was right, in that respect:

    Quote from Dr. Ferris, in the book Atlas Shrugged, speaking to Hank Rearden in Rearden's office --

    Dr. Ferris: "We've waited a long time to get something on you. You honest men are such a problem and such a headache. But we knew you'd slip up sooner or later -- and this is just what we wanted."

    Rearden: "You seem to be pleased about it."

    Ferris: "Don't I have good reason to be?"

    Rearden: "But, after all, I did break one of your laws."

    Ferris: "Well, what do you think they're for? Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed? We want them broken. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted -- and you create a nation of law-breakers -- and then you cash in on the guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Rearden, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."


    How to ensure our kids inherit the right to be armed (and all the rest)? Blast the destroyers to hell and gone, no matter what it takes, starting with all lawful means, playing harder "ball" as required, until they're gone and the Constitution is restored. Isn't going to be easy. Might well end up being bloody, before we get the far side of the destruction they're bringing. Either way, it's gonna happen. But it's not going to happen easily or end well, so long as we largely remain asleep at the wheel, as a People. How to ensure it? Waking up is a requisite first step.

    Are we fighting the right battle? Yes, I think so. Are we fighting it smartly, sufficiently well to win that battle? Not so far, IMO.

    Are we on the right battlefield? Largely, no. We're fighting these destroyers and liberty-haters with their dishonesty and underhanded tactics with righteous debate and standard tactics. So long as we adhere to just those methods, we'll lose it all.
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    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Are we on the right battlefield? Largely, no. We're fighting these destroyers and liberty-haters with their dishonesty and underhanded tactics with righteous debate and standard tactics. So long as we adhere to just those methods, we'll lose it all.
    Your words smack with revolution...and I am with you.

    I was going to send you that in a PM, but hey..either way my words..your words are being monitored, so I suppose it does not matter either way.
    Warrior1256 likes this.
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    Your words smack with revolution...and I am with you.
    Didn't say anything about armed revolution. Nor did you, per se, but that's the implication.

    But revolting against the destruction is exactly what citizens are doing. And if we're to survive it, we need to change the ground rules and intelligently destroy the destroyers. Ain't gonna happen by osmosis. And in the end it'll certainly involve getting far more than finger cramps due to writing too many letters. It needn't be bloody. Though, I suspect the destroyers aren't going to let go of our throats without some "blood" being shed. But it's our necks. Let it be their blood. Intelligently, that's the key. Now, to figure out just what that is ...
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Intelligently, that's the key. Now, to figure out just what that is ...
    2014 is not to far off. I'm waiting to see what happens politically..re-election bids, new blood...how "The People" vote, or will the memories of 2012-2013
    be covered with yet another story..another "Shiny thing" for the people to be attracted to?
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

    Do what you can; then do what you must

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    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    Now; either someone is right or someone is wrong; sorry, I'm not a believer in "middle ground." Middle ground IMO, is where the socialist progressives thrive as they can attack in two directions
    Their strategy is to divide and conquer.

    The people in the "middle" fall for this.

    There is no middle when it comes to our RKBA.

    There is no debate. Never give an inch. And never give up the good fight.
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    The proper use of the word "compromise" has been so muddied by blatant misuse that a true meaning is more often lost than not.

    Lately, whenever the far-left is fighting a desperate rear guard action--where they are on the losing side--they simply dig in and keep repeating their initial demand (which has never changed during any of the debate/discussions) and they get their good buddies in the main stream media to label their extreme position a "reasonable compromise."

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    Member Array gtfoxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    My post is prompted by the current legislative construct of weapon permits in Illinois.

    I see and hear words like (Compromise), not only in Illinois, but everywhere the second amendment is being attacked.
    I've even heard the NRA use the word.

    Now; either someone is right or someone is wrong; sorry, I'm not a believer in "middle ground." Middle ground IMO, is where the socialist progressives thrive as they can attack in two directions.

    Many Pro 2A people call the anti's idiots, jerks, deluded etc...
    Numerous politicians who are anti 2A, anti gun, proceed from a position I find incomprehensible.

    1) They TRULY believe in their cause?
    2) They are mentally and clinically unhinged?
    3) They have a far deeper nefarious purpose?

    When all the name calling subsides and our anger is turned to logic, we are left with some VERY disturbing questions.

    1) What is it exactly (They) want to accomplish?
    2) WHY?

    When we look at those last (2) questions, we are left with a few questions ourselves.

    1) Are we being deceived?
    2) Are we fighting the right battle and are we on the right battlefield?

    Yes, Yes & Not Completly.

    You left out one; Are we fighting hard enough?

    To that I would say No! Otherwise every pro 2 A supporter would have mandated their States show support for their rights.

    In States now long slipped into massive government control of almost all liberties, the time for changing this, from within, is nearly passed. Only by example of other states, standing up for their liberties & living by them, can the example of those states be seen, then we can only hope they come to their senses.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Easy8's Avatar
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    Never compromise your principles, thats what they ask
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    VIP Member Array OutWestSystems's Avatar
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    In my opinion the VAST majority of people that support gun control are doing it because they honestly believe it will do some good. It is not because they are trying to take away rights, they believe they are protecting people. It is not a problem of trying to teach them about the 2nd Amendment, it is about trying to teach them that their ideas will not help in the least. One of the problems with the "pro-gun" side is that many of the people talk "revolution", "armed resistance", "civil war", if you look at it from their side, they of course think those people are "gun nuts". The problem is those sort of "gun nuts" are the vocal ones and the ones that end up in the news, so they are the face of the pro-gun people. Those of us that are a bit calmer and realize that this is mainly an education problem, need to be more vocal and teach them why guns are not evil and not really the problem.

    Yes, there are those in power that would like to see people disarmed for the sole reason of getting more power for themselves, but remember under our system they are not the ones we need to change, we need to get to the ones that vote those people in.
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    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OutWestSystems View Post
    In my opinion the VAST majority of people that support gun control are doing it because they honestly believe it will do some good. It is not because they are trying to take away rights, they believe they are protecting people. It is not a problem of trying to teach them about the 2nd Amendment, it is about trying to teach them that their ideas will not help in the least. One of the problems with the "pro-gun" side is that many of the people talk "revolution", "armed resistance", "civil war", if you look at it from their side, they of course think those people are "gun nuts". The problem is those sort of "gun nuts" are the vocal ones and the ones that end up in the news, so they are the face of the pro-gun people. Those of us that are a bit calmer and realize that this is mainly an education problem, need to be more vocal and teach them why guns are not evil and not really the problem.

    Yes, there are those in power that would like to see people disarmed for the sole reason of getting more power for themselves, but remember under our system they are not the ones we need to change, we need to get to the ones that vote those people in.
    You are correct. However, they are smart enough not to attempt total disarmament through legislation. They will do it through a crisis like an economic collapse, a large scale terrorist attack, or natural disaster. They will do it through run-around executive order. They are insidious and evil.

    And, we can never allow disarmament - no matter what.

    What triggered the Revolution in April 1775?

    Disarmament.

    And what is the ultimate agenda of the leftists?

    Disarmament.

    I believe in what you said. We have to be calm and rational. We support the NRA. We join gun clubs that promote our RKBA and educate the youth in regard to gun safety and the importance of the 2nd Amendment. We write respectful letters to our congressmen and encourage them to respect and support our RKBA. We take people to the range and teach them to shoot and encourage them to get their CCW. We vote in elections for people who support the 2nd Amendment, and we expose those politicians who do not.
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    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. — Winston Churchill

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    Senior Member Array Warrior1256's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    Your words smack with revolution...and I am with you.

    I was going to send you that in a PM, but hey..either way my words..your words are being monitored, so I suppose it does not matter either way.
    I agree and I'm with you.

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    Yes, we fight the good fight... Yes, we vote 'em all out. Yes, we speak out, we educate our children.

    But, keep this in mind. Our children are in the minority.... Even amongst gun owners.

    It has been said there are 100,000,000 gun owners in this country. If you say there are more, fine, but that makes those who might be wiling to get "real serious" about the second amendment an even smaller minority.

    The NRA, arguably the biggest "club" to persuade the legislators to vote FOR gun rights, is just now approaching 4,000,000 members... 4% of all the gun owners care enough to spend $30 a YEAR to keep their guns. How many of them would get bloody to keep their arms? Would the 86,000 that attended this year's annual meeting? That's a paltry 2% of the membership... .03% of the population of this country...

    The last revolution had, at best, about 30% support, to fight the world's most formidable army.

    This revolution, with .03% of the population... Is, frankly, doomed.

    If you put your hopes in the next generation... Well, the millenials may vote with you... But following generations have, or are being, indoctrinated in public schools, that all guns are bad... Except in the hands of LEO, and maybe the military...

    Some of the LEOs, and soldiers will not fight against us... May even join us. Will that be enough? Perhaps, until deserters are shot for treason....

    Practical logistics make this talk of revolution frivolous at best, suicidal at worst.

    Yeah, I got tapatalk, too. So what?
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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