Congress, it's powers and the 2nd Amendment?

Congress, it's powers and the 2nd Amendment?

This is a discussion on Congress, it's powers and the 2nd Amendment? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I decided that I would clear my head and read the constitution again , with an open mind, and just read the words that are ...

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Thread: Congress, it's powers and the 2nd Amendment?

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    Distinguished Member Array AZJD1968's Avatar
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    Congress, it's powers and the 2nd Amendment?

    I decided that I would clear my head and read the constitution again , with an open mind, and just read the words that are written.
    Amendments 1-10 were added afterword for further declaratory and restrictive purposes and as I was reading, I payed special attention to Article 1 sec 8 clauses 15-16. To me, those two clauses make sense as they stand alone. Yet as I read the 2nd amendment also, it now seems to me that it was meant for the clarification of these two clauses.
    If you insert it between clause 15 and 16, (like below) to me it reads like it was meant to be there, hence the amendment.
    BUT, if so, then it changes the context and meaning that it has other than if is just standing alone.

    8.1 The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    8.15 To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

    2nd am. A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

    8.16 To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
    Now that I read it in this context, I'm not so sure that it was meant solely for the people to use against our tyrannical government. As a matter of fact, it doesn't say anything about that.

    But on a side note, what it does say in clause 16 is that congress has the power to provide for arming said militia.



    I would very much appreciate your thoughts and comments on these things.
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    Socialism Kills! Time proven, with a very large body count! We are a Constitutional Republic....... not a Democracy, get it correct!

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZJD1968 View Post
    Now that I read it in this context, I'm not so sure that it was meant solely for the people to use against our tyrannical government. As a matter of fact, it doesn't say anything about that.
    You're right. Those passages you point to say nothing about guarding against tyranny. And yet, that's the entire purpose spelled out in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution: the protection of liberty. It's WHY things were set up with checks and balances, with independence of the People, with rights the People reserved unto themselves specifically, with the statements that lack of enumeration didn't disparage all other rights of the People, etc.

    And regarding the power of the government to arm, train and appoint officers for the militia, keep in mind this was for situations in which citizens were bring hired for paid service in the employ of the People specifically to be professional soldiers. That is a completely separate thing from all other citizens outside of paid soldiery who'd be in their communities and left to their own devices. And never forget what "militia" means: the adult population capable of bearing arms, no more and no less. It has nothing to do with the military, nor of soldiering, nor of being hired by, armed and trained by the government for paid service. That group is something else entirely. That is the paid military, our common government-controlled force. The militia, though, the people who are capable of bearing arms, is everyone else outside of military, outside of government control, pay, arming, and all the rest. It's us, and we're basically left to our own devices, left to arm ourselves.

    1770's era language and what it meant.

    The Founders' View Of The Right To Bear Arms, by David Young (2007). This book, and Young's companion (and much, much larger and richer) book, are both excellent reads, and they'll help clarify your confusion on the basic purpose of the People reserving unto themselves the right to be armed and to disallow all infringements to that right.
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    You take the Oath, you live by the Oath.......... Just sayin.

    The rest of the discussion is, well, so 1775............it has been settled. But, now, everyone wants to rewrite and discombulate the words................
    Socialism Kills! Time proven, with a very large body count! We are a Constitutional Republic....... not a Democracy, get it correct!

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    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    If anyone on this forum wore the black robes, it might make a difference in how you or I interpret the text.

    Since I believe none of the justices frequent these forums, I find any other interpretation moot. Fun to talk about; but moot.

    The power of interpretation and changing laws = money...Lots of it.

    Kinda' sad isn't it.
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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    If anyone on this forum wore the black robes, it might make a difference in how you or I interpret the text.

    Since I believe none of the justices frequent these forums, I find any other interpretation moot. Fun to talk about; but moot.

    The power of interpretation and changing laws = money...Lots of it.

    Kinda' sad isn't it.
    QFT.

    Sad though? Only in that the words have been stretched, poked, and prodded to allow for the mess we have now.

    There are as many "sects" reading the Constitution as there are sects reading the Bible, every group believes their way is the only right way to interpret the words.

    It'd be nice if the Constitution had a addendum written by the authors, explaining what they meant. Some say we have that in The Federalist Papers... But then, there are many, even in the time of the writing, that "weren't so sure." Hence the Anti Federalist Papers and the 10 Amendments in the Bill Of Rights.

    What IS sad, is that neither side will leave the other alone. Or, more honestly; those who wish to confiscate our guns to make themselves feel safer will not leave us alone.
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    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    QFT.

    Sad though? Only in that the words have been stretched, poked, and prodded to allow for the mess we have now.

    There are as many "sects" reading the Constitution as there are sects reading the Bible, every group believes their way is the only right way to interpret the words.

    It'd be nice if the Constitution had a addendum written by the authors, explaining what they meant. Some say we have that in The Federalist Papers... But then, there are many, even in the time of the writing, that "weren't so sure." Hence the Anti Federalist Papers and the 10 Amendments in the Bill Of Rights.

    What IS sad, is that neither side will leave the other alone. Or, more honestly; those who wish to confiscate our guns to make themselves feel safer will not leave us alone.
    Honestly, this is an argument for the strictly textualist interpretation. In the lack of explanation, we only have the words on the document. The document was ratified by the states as written.

    The only true and accurate way to interpret the Constitution is the literal translation of the words and what they meant at the time of authorship. All other interpretations are presumptive and invalid.
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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liquid150 View Post
    Honestly, this is an argument for the strictly textualist interpretation. In the lack of explanation, we only have the words on the document. The document was ratified by the states as written.

    The only true and accurate way to interpret the Constitution is the literal translation of the words and what they meant at the time of authorship. All other interpretations are presumptive and invalid.

    Valid argument... How do you account for the changes in technology (and social structure for that matter) as they apply to the Constitution, or rather, as the Constitution applies to them?
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Valid argument... How do you account for the changes in technology (and social structure for that matter) as they apply to the Constitution, or rather, as the Constitution applies to them?
    From Jefferson (this is the original text, not the one used on panel four of his memorial):
    "I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." - Jefferson to H.
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    Distinguished Member Array chuckusaret's Avatar
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    AZJD1968: Now that I read it in this context, I'm not so sure that it was meant solely for the people to use against our tyrannical government. As a matter of fact, it doesn't say anything about that.
    Check my signature and I believe it was the intent and means as written of the 2nd Amendment which means nothing to our so called representative and surely not the president.
    US Army 1953-1977

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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    If you read the Founders' thoughts on bearing arms, you will see that your point is out of context.
    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

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    The only way to know what the intent of the original writers of the 2A was is to ask them . . . and they're not here to answer. Now, to try to pick apart the meaning and intent is pure speculation.
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    The only way to know what the intent of the original writers of the 2A was is to ask them . . . and they're not here to answer. Now, to try to pick apart the meaning and intent is pure speculation.
    Or to evaluate all their writings of the day, including supporting documents and transcripts from Congress, the debates, etc.

    Which some have. Such as ... David Young's two books, The Founders' View of the Right to Bear Arms: A Definitive History of the Second Amendment, and The Origin of the Second Amendment: A Documentary History of the Bill of Rights in Commentaries on Liberty, Free Government and an Armed Populace, 1787-1792.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    The only way to know what the intent of the original writers of the 2A was is to ask them . . . and they're not here to answer. Now, to try to pick apart the meaning and intent is pure speculation.
    Many of them wrote on the issue of ownership of guns, so if we have their own words, if can hardly be called speculation.
    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

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    Member Array liquid150's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Valid argument... How do you account for the changes in technology (and social structure for that matter) as they apply to the Constitution, or rather, as the Constitution applies to them?
    The proper avenue as provided by the Constitution, amendments.

    Social structure has been dealt with by amendments (15A and 19A). I won't touch other issues at hand today, but these are two huge examples.

    Until 2A is amended to allow for a certain level of infringement, all gun control acts by both the federal government and the states are unconstitutional. The Supreme Court only has the power to interpret the words on the page, not create artificial yet socially acceptable boundaries for laws.

    In the context of 2A, any government action which restricts or even merely encroaches upon a citizens right to keep (own) and bear (carry) arms (weapons and munitions) is inherently unconstitutional.

    The problem is SCOTUS derives power from granting power to Congress. If they completely forbid laws of a type as is required by the Constitution, they lose the power to decide in the future what is or is not socially acceptable at the time. That's why they allow for certain amounts of regulation, it grants them more power. This is how the flawed concepts of a "living document" and "interpretation of intent" came to fruition.

    These are both invalid, as the document was ratified as written, and the intent of the authors as well as the concept of document fluidity were NOT ratified.

    Simply, these types of changes require a Constitutional Convention.
    ccw9mm and Bullet1234 like this.

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