Striking a Patient is Never Warranted - Page 2

Striking a Patient is Never Warranted

This is a discussion on Striking a Patient is Never Warranted within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by WorldPax Character and professionalism. Did the patient deserve it? Man to man, stand up fight, sure. Tied to a gurney, I don't ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorldPax View Post
    Character and professionalism. Did the patient deserve it? Man to man, stand up fight, sure. Tied to a gurney, I don't think so. Did the EMT deserve to lose his job? No, there but for the grace go I.
    No doubt striking with a closed fist was poor judgement, and seems to be counter to the Paramedic's claim that he did not intend to "strike" the patient.

    Quote Originally Posted by falcon1 View Post
    "First do no harm"--I'm not trying to "add fuel to the fire" one way or the other, I'm simply asking...do other persons besides physicians in the medical profession take the Hippocratic Oath?
    The Hippocratic Oath is not required. Paramedics don't take it. There is an EMT's Oath, which is similar, but not required.

    I have copied some information below. Regarding the bold sections:

    I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses

    Being a Christian, not gonna happen.
    A well respected EMS Physician recently quoted these sections, but he was also complaining that some EMS students didn't like his Physician level instruction in Anatomy and Physiology, because it contradicted with their Christian beliefs. (NOT starting a religious thread here!) But he was OK swearing to mythical gods. Sheesh!

    Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. Conveniently left out of the "Modern Version."

    So every Physician that does abortions violates the Classical Oath.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

    "...It is a common misconception that the phrase primum non nocere, “first, do no harm” is included in the Hippocratic Oath. It is not, but seems to have been derived through Galen from Hippocrates’s Epidemics in which he wrote, “Declare the past, diagnose the present, foretell the future; practice these acts. As to diseases, make a habit of two things—to help, or at least to do no harm.”


    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors...classical.html

    Hippocratic Oath -- Classical Version

    I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

    To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

    I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

    I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

    I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

    Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

    What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

    If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_modern.html

    Hippocratic Oath—Modern Version

    I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

    I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

    I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

    I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

    I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

    I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

    I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

    I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

    I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

    If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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  2. #17
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    That was an interesting post paramedic70002

  3. #18
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    Thanks, paramedic70002! Good information!

  4. #19
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    As a paramedic for 22 years, followed by (and currently practicing) 18 years a s a Physician Assistant, I have been involved with more than my shere if unrowdy pt, both those in charge of their faculities, and those who were not. I understand the abger with being spit in the face, especially given the venom that this pt was spewing. The fact that you have to be concerned about pathogens is also part of the equation. But it comes down to the fact that you will never be justified striking a pt that is bound to a stretcher. I've been threatened, and I have had to defend myself. But if you hit this person, you're guilty of assault. I've known offecers who would have locked him up on the spot, if not on the first, at least by the 2nd. At the very least, they would have said something the first time. If I had been the paramedic, and asked that he pt be secured on his abdomen, I would have insisted on it. I would not have moved the stretcher until he was prone. The smartest thing to do is to prevent the situation from happening.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    I will go out on a limb here and agree , Striking a patent is NEVER WARRENTED , I have done warrents for a lot of things but never that , So if emergancy med techs cant do it , stand back boys and let the LE do it , or lets just go ahead and commision them as special or reserve officers and give them the legal standing for the powers they have needed for a long time .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  6. #21
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    Question

    Hasn't it now been proven possible to contract HIV if an HIV Pos or Full Blown AIDS individual spits or gets their blood into an eye?
    Just wondering as I think I read that it's possible to become HIV Pos if that ever happens.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Hasn't it now been proven possible to contract HIV if an HIV Pos or Full Blown AIDS individual spits or gets their blood into an eye?
    Just wondering as I think I read that it's possible to become HIV Pos if that ever happens.
    Possible but highly unlikely. There would have to be gross visible blood in the spit, and an open wound on the receiver. Lots of other variables as well, like virulence, resistance, post-exposure treatment.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  8. #23
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    Paramedic70002, your reply to the author was excellent. You are absolutely right; and when I read the "never justified" assertion, I immediately was asking, "Wait a minute, what about if the patient is committing a physical attack on the paramedic?! The paramedic just has to stand there and take it and cannot defend himself using blows?!" That's absurd. I'd like to see the administrative agency get sued for someone being severely injured because he was following "policy" and felt he could not defend himself from a violent attack because it was counter to the employee handbook rules!

    In this specific case, I can't say I fully agree that the punches were justified, but I can easily imagine situations where physical force would be justified beyond any doubt. Paramedics can be physically attacked just like any other human beings. Cops can fight back -- but not paramedics? That's just idiotic.

    And the idea that people wanted soo soooo badly to fire a guy for ONE transgression when he was, by all accounts, an EXEMPLARY PARAMEDIC -- that's just asinine. How many patients will be harmed by the absence of this guy, who otherwise would have been the beneficiaries of his excellent skills and knowledge? So what is the greater good served by? Terminating his employment or a stern warning and letting him continue to do good?

  9. #24
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    I think that paramedics should be allowed to "restrain" their pts. My fiance is a paramedic and she is only about 5'2" 110 lbs. but she has ways of controlling unruly pts. There is an unwritten policy that we are not allowed strike a pt. while at work. However i would hate to be the one on the receiving end if anyone attacked a member of my Engine company.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squawker View Post
    . But it comes down to the fact that you will never be justified striking a pt that is bound to a stretcher. .
    That's pretty much the bottom line. It doesn't matter if you are the best EMT that ever lived, if you punch someone who is tied down you really have to expect to get in a ton of trouble.

    Again, having people tied face down in this sitation is pretty basic procedure. At my hospital anyone who is four-pointed has to be tied face down per policy.

    Don't forget, cops fight with bad guys/perps/suspects, for medical personal we are dealing with patients, if there is an issue of saftey let the police or security handle it. While I am allowed to restrain people (after which I have an hour to get the doc to write me an order) if the person is combative, I always call security. In a physical confrontation, once you throw a closed fist, (vs a take down hold or a push) you have just taken to a very serious level.

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    I saw nothing wrong with the EMT's actions.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    These EMS supervisors need to get out of their office and do a couple of runs over a holiday weekend...remind them where they came from (if they were ever line medics)
    Exactly. I have a friend who is a firefighter paramedic. She has told me that there are lots of calls they will not go on until police have arrived. (She works in a town that's essentially a craphole.) That should tell you something about what often faces these emergency responders.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    What a bunch of weenies.
    You've got a crazy guy that drinks water from toilets spitting at everyone and raising cain.

    That should have warranted an azz whoopin right there on the spot...and I dont mean a gentle one.

    You've got an paramedic with way abover average ratings and no disciplinary action on record. He did what he had to do to stop the assault on himself. Clear and simple.

    You have at least one judge saying yeah, he shouldnt have done it, but it aint wirth firing him over it. Then you have two politically correct,touchy feely fools that feel they must use ZERO tolerance on any patient that is trying to kill everyone around them.

    The heck with any one elses rights, lets cater to the crazy man that is a liablity to society and as crazy as the day is long.

    Pitiful. Absolutley pitiful.
    You hit this one squarely on the head HotGuns.
    What I never saw while reading the entire first thread is the instigator in all of this commotion was NOT a patient!!! He was a PRISONER from the nutjob ward. The EMT who was disciplined and later fired was defending himself from a wacko prisoner NOT a patient. Furthermore at some point the second EMT needed his butt kicked by the first EMT just on general principal. I was glad to see EMT#2 get suspended for 5 days for being a jerkoff.

    Those 2 judges of the touchy-feely politically correct crowd should be terminated or thrown out a window 3 stories up.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    I've personally seen a petite female (whacked out on dope) become so instantly and explosively violent AKA so totally ballistic/agressive that it took two Medics and two hefty police officers to finally get her restrained on the stretcher.
    Her "friends" had tossed her out of their moving car into the street.

    The entire ambulance was rocking back & forth once they got her inside and she had gouged one officer across the face (in his eye area) with her finger~nails.
    That officer could EASILY have lost his sight in that one eye.

    These people who are high on certain drugs act worse than rabid raccoons.
    Agreed. One of the most painful altercations I was in involved a petite "lady of evening" and a set of metal stiletto heels. She was so juiced up that while an officer was cuffing her she was able to push off of him and plant both heels into my chest (drop kick). Vests were not issued to us back in the dark-ages, so I ended up with two orange-sized knots under my collar bone. The melee that followed looked like two grizzly bears fighting a panther in a parking lot.
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  15. #30
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    Dang. This post is 7 years old.

    Since then, I've been involved in a few "altercations" involving so called "patients" that needed to be transported.

    I've been called to the scene numerous times to secure it. Since this post, my view has changed considerably.
    Its been my experience that none of the EMT's want to get spit on, kicked, poked, punched, scratched or any multitude of indignities that they occasionally endue when attempting to transport some fool that is too stupid to breath air and walk at the same time.

    If a some crack or meth head wants to play Billy badass with the EMT's I'm all for letting them beat them into submission. if it were me over the station, my EMTS would have Tasers and be encourage to use them on stupid people that want to fight. Keep Tasing them until they submit.

    Who ever thought of the "zero tolerance" on hitting a patient is a pink liberal idiot that I have no use for as a human being. Get them out there doing the same job and see how they act. Of course, they may curl up in the fetal position and suck their thumb and wait for the police to bail their tails out.

    If I get to the scene and an EMT tells me that they just had to pop knots all over someone in self defense, I'm only going to ask them one question..." are you all right"? I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    I'm tired of this zero tolerance bull hockey. Someone can whoop on you and if you fight back you are guilty of self defense. Wrong. I'm not buying it.
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