Question about full auto weapons

This is a discussion on Question about full auto weapons within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I've been seeing/hearing some "facts" about the availability of fully-auto "assault weapons" (specifically AKs and ARs) to criminals, and that got me to wondering... Is ...

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    Senior Member Array RicT's Avatar
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    Question about full auto weapons

    I've been seeing/hearing some "facts" about the availability of fully-auto "assault weapons" (specifically AKs and ARs) to criminals, and that got me to wondering...

    Is there some source where I can find actual numbers of legally-owned full auto weapons? Since each of these requires a tax stamp, it seems like there would be a publicly accessible number or other data...

    I'd love to be able to throw some actual numbers back at the anti-gunners about the relatively miniscule numbers of these things actually out there.

    Any info?

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    The number of "legally owned" autos is probably miniscule overall. The number of "illegally owned" autos is probably higher, but that actual number can't be tracked.
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    VIP Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
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    Incidents where a criminal uses an illegal full auto make the national news and are RARE. If they get stolen all hell breaks lose till they get them back.

    This isn't a primer of the final word, but take it for what it's worth:
    GunCite - Gun Control: Machine Guns
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." C.S. Lewis

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    Member Array NightOwl76's Avatar
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    A quick Google search turned up this page, which claims that in 1995 roughly 240,000 automatic weapons were registered in the US. Roughly half of those owned by police and government agencies, the other half by civilians.

    GunCite - Gun Control: Machine Guns

    I'd assume that the number has gone up overall since then, but that the number legally owned by civilians has remained roughly the same. And you have to consider that some of the weapons are going to be obsolete / collectible stuff, and at least in some cases chambered for a caliber that's darn near impossible to find. I'd love to see numbers on how many actually useful (as in, you'd take it to a fight over a high quality modern semiautomatic) automatic weapons are legally owned by civilians.

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    VIP Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
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    Legal, transferable machineguns are quite expensive. A POS welded, 9mm Sten gun from the 1940s will run you over $7K, and is allot less effective (IMO) than a fully legal AK-47.

    Finding someone in possession of one illegally, and who is willing to sell it for murder level incarceration time (maybe more than murder), I am guessing that you're talking many tens of thousands of dollars, and that just wouldn't be available to 99.999% of criminals.

    The only people who would reasonably have them are criminals for whom money is no object. That would mean the drug cartels. They can get anything they want, and do, but it comes from overseas, not from stamp holders or legal weapons here.
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    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." C.S. Lewis

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    I'd suggest crawling through the BATFE web site. You can find FFL data there, might be other info available.
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    The other number to look at is 0 (zero), that is the number of legally owned fully automatic weapons that have been used in the commission of a violent crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by NRA
    BATF interpreted the amendment as a prohibition on the civilian possession of any fully-automatic firearm manufactured after May 19, 1986. The effect of the interpretation has been to "freeze" the number of privately owned fully-automatic firearms at roughly 150,000, an exact figure being unavailable due to privacy protection requirements that apply to tax-based laws such as the National Firearms Act. The crime-fighting utility of the 1986 "freeze" was questionable, since no legal, civilian-owned fully-automatic firearm had been used to commit a violent crime. BATF's director at the time, Stephen Higgins, had testified before Congress in 1986 that the misuse of legally-owned fully-automatic firearms was "so minimal as not to be considered a law enforcement problem." Farmer v. Higgins
    Full write up about the 1934 NFA and 1968 GCA from the NRA/ILA
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    "In 1995 there were over 240,000 machine guns registered with the ATF. (Zawitz, Marianne,Bureau of Justice Statistics, Guns Used in Crime [PDF].) About half are owned by civilians and the other half by police departments and other governmental agencies (Gary Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.)

    Since 1934, there appear to have been at least two homicides committed with legally owned automatic weapons. One was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer (as opposed to a civilian). On September 15th, 1988, a 13-year veteran of the Dayton, Ohio police department, Patrolman Roger Waller, then 32, used his fully automatic MAC-11 .380 caliber submachine gun to kill a police informant, 52-year-old Lawrence Hileman. Patrolman Waller pleaded guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18 years in prison. The 1986 'ban' on sales of new machine guns does not apply to purchases by law enforcement or government agencies."

    My calculator can't even handle the number: 2 divided by 240,000 over a 61 year period! Answer = 0.0000136612%
    Ben

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    If someone owns an AKS for example, and has 1 of the parts the they need to convert to full. Is that AKS then considered a "full auto" by the ATF? I know that there is a list, somewhere of PARTS ONLY, that cannot be owned legally. Do they consider those full auto, in their book, or just illegal parts".

    The laws are so complicated now. A close friend was Class 2 and Class 3 at one time. He would buy older cut receivers, repair and re-machine them. His customer base was "Movie Studios", Warner, Goldwyn etc. He got out of the business because the laws were too complex for his "comfort". His explanation was, Class 2 was no longer valid f,or his business, as no new full autos could be manufactured and sold to the public, movie studios included. The only full autos that private individuals could purchase were ones manufactured before a certain date. His cut receivers were considered NEW even though some were 50 years old.

    I am in no way certain of this. All I know is that he got out of his legal business of manufacturing and selling to movie studios.
    A wise man once said: "Bugout bag?..What's that? Is that all the junk you sidewalk commandos plan on humping when the SHTF...I'll grab a Nylon 66, a box of 22s and a poncho liner and in less than a week I will have all of your stuff and everything else that I need for the duration."

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    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    Well under the Direct Commercial Contract, we sell fully automatic "everything" to all of our wonderful neighbors, like ... Muslim Brotherhood, Syrian Rebels, Syrian Army, Lebanese Armies, Al Queda, and other backwater countries but our own people are NOT allowed to own or operate fully "Select Fire" weapons unless they meet 2 criteria and there are more but...: 1. They are Pre-1986 and 2. You are a registered Class III Manufacturer, can provided annual fees and proof that your business is making profit or making advancements in your business using the the Select Fire weapon.

    Not to mention that local law enforcement agencies, and federal agencies, i.e. DHS have acquired numerous high energy high powered weapons to kill you with while at the same time under the 2nd Amendment you are wrongfully usurped into not being able to own anything that they "the super elite" can own.

    As others have said keep your powder dry. The day is coming near for the tree is thirsty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeger View Post
    Legal, transferable machineguns are quite expensive. A POS welded, 9mm Sten gun from the 1940s will run you over $7K, and is allot less effective (IMO) than a fully legal AK-47.
    Really? I saw a full auto sten for sale at a local show for 3k.

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    VIP Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
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    The last one I saw the guy was asking $7K, but in all honesty, $3k for one is still criminal.
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." C.S. Lewis

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    Thought there were no new autos. The ones out there for legal ownership are the only ones available, Therefore the unreal price to buy them.
    Once again our all knowing government putting limits on what law abiding citizens can own, while the criminals grab anything they can get their hands on.
    William Wallace: There's a difference between us. You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists to provide those people with freedom. And I go to make sure that they have it.

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    Most of the examples of FA criminal used were in most cases illegal converted semi auto . True FA ( ie ones that came from the factory that way) are rare before 1934 not so much but after that uncommon. The main case I know of are the used of open bolt guns that have been illagle modified they were pretty popular back in the 60-80's I know a number of gangs and the such that used to pack them but since 82 that has gotten uncommon. Then there was that shootout in Hollywood CA that was a illagle modify gun as well. There were also a number of used of FA back in 60s .

    Back as other has mentioned what is out there is out there there is no more . I know some guns esp the trigger packs and sears are more common as they were higher demand or they were cheap ie the full auto ar stuff the mac -tecs etc. But some stuff is very rarer like less then 1-10 in whole use often one off projects etc such as a FA 59 s&w.

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    I don't like guns, I just like stamps.



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