Psychiatrists Claim No Crystal Ball

This is a discussion on Psychiatrists Claim No Crystal Ball within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Shrinks don't want ownership of trying to predict who's going to be violent because they say that they don't do that very well. ...[E]ven if ...

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    Psychiatrists Claim No Crystal Ball

    Shrinks don't want ownership of trying to predict who's going to be violent because they say that they don't do that very well.
    ...[E]ven if people who receive certain diagnoses are more likely to commit acts of violence than the general population, the vast majority of them do not. According to the American Psychiatric Association, "96% of people with serious mental illnesses never act violently." Any attempt to prevent all of them from owning guns would be highly inefficient as well as unfair....
    Anyone with an interest in UBC for the "mentally ill" should read this pithy article from Reason magazine.

    It says LaPierre is overstepping in calling for this, and I agree. NRA should stick to training responsible gun owners and advocating for their freedom including examples of successful uses of guns for self defense of honest armed citizens. And the NRA should squelch social comments about games, movies, mental illness and other Utopian insights.
    Last edited by Pistology; October 18th, 2013 at 12:10 PM. Reason: Misspelled "pithy".
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    We gotta have someone to scapegoat. If we can't deny gun access to crazies then who's left?... Hey, wait a minute.
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    Shrinks don't want ownership of trying to predict who's going to be violent because they say that they don't do that very well.
    Gee...I'm shocked.
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    Psychiatrists are educated people. They know the dangers of slippery slope.
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    If you think that violent video games don't have any effect on young impressionable minds, you need to think again. I'm not saying that video games, violent films, or music with violent lyrics causes anybody to commit crime, but I absolutely believe that it desensitizes young minds and weak minds to the content they contain. And that does negatively affect their decision making.

    If a kid grows up listening to music that glorifies things such as pre-marital sex, treating women like crap, committing crimes, committing violence against people over minor disputes, etc., it WILL affect his/her moral compass - especially if there isn't any strong guidance in their life to teach the opposite. The same goes for video games and amoral television/movies. People that don't have the developed mind to actually know better can easily view these things and believe that they are a part of normal life. There is no reason why 8 year olds should be playing games such as Grand Theft Auto (the very name should explain that, I'm not sure how parents miss that), or listening to music that glorifies violence and sex (and a list of other topics).

    It isn't the cause, but it definitely has an affect on people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    If you think that violent video games don't have any effect on young impressionable minds, you need to think again. I'm not saying that video games, violent films, or music with violent lyrics causes anybody to commit crime, but I absolutely believe that it desensitizes young minds and weak minds to the content they contain. And that does negatively affect their decision making.

    If a kid grows up listening to music that glorifies things such as pre-marital sex, treating women like crap, committing crimes, committing violence against people over minor disputes, etc., it WILL affect his/her moral compass - especially if there isn't any strong guidance in their life to teach the opposite. The same goes for video games and amoral television/movies. People that don't have the developed mind to actually know better can easily view these things and believe that they are a part of normal life. There is no reason why 8 year olds should be playing games such as Grand Theft Auto (the very name should explain that, I'm not sure how parents miss that), or listening to music that glorifies violence and sex (and a list of other topics).

    It isn't the cause, but it definitely has an affect on people.
    You make a good point, but it's a mistake for the NRA to make a scapegoat of the entertainment industry. Our Second Amendment rights aren't any safer if we advocate an attack on the First Amendment rights of others. If anything, the two groups should find common cause - both are fighting the erroneous notion that one can prevent crime by limiting the rights of the entire population.

    I wholeheartedly agree that children should NOT be playing Grand Theft Auto. Especially the most recent one - wow does it push the boundaries. Great game though.
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    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxwell97 View Post
    You make a good point, but it's a mistake for the NRA to make a scapegoat of the entertainment industry. Our Second Amendment rights aren't any safer if we advocate an attack on the First Amendment rights of others. If anything, the two groups should find common cause - both are fighting the erroneous notion that one can prevent crime by limiting the rights of the entire population.

    I wholeheartedly agree that children should NOT be playing Grand Theft Auto. Especially the most recent one - wow does it push the boundaries. Great game though.
    I don't think they're trying to make a scapegoat of the entertainment industry. Mentally deficient people are negatively impacted by these types of things, and it is something that needs to be addressed and considered. Like I said earlier, it's not the cause, but it is a piece of the pie. And it is not a "First Amendment Right" for young people to play adult rated video games, or listen to music with explicit content, or watch movies that are rated R (especially not today's version of R-rating). Those are things that should be regulated. Playing video games is not a "first amendment right".
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    If you think that violent video games don't have any effect on young impressionable minds, you need to think again. I'm not saying that video games, violent films, or music with violent lyrics causes anybody to commit crime, but I absolutely believe that it desensitizes young minds and weak minds to the content they contain. And that does negatively affect their decision making.

    If a kid grows up listening to music that glorifies things such as pre-marital sex, treating women like crap, committing crimes, committing violence against people over minor disputes, etc., it WILL affect his/her moral compass - especially if there isn't any strong guidance in their life to teach the opposite. The same goes for video games and amoral television/movies. People that don't have the developed mind to actually know better can easily view these things and believe that they are a part of normal life. There is no reason why 8 year olds should be playing games such as Grand Theft Auto (the very name should explain that, I'm not sure how parents miss that), or listening to music that glorifies violence and sex (and a list of other topics).

    It isn't the cause, but it definitely has an affect on people.
    Where that stuff can be contributing factors, some of that logic still falls back on blaming objects rather than people. In the case of kids, the onus is truly on the parents. I think you hit the nail on the head in the bolded sentence.

    FWIW, my 13 yr-old plays Grand Theft Auto with the volume down (so he doesn't have to hear the bad words). He picks fights with whomever he see's smoking, and generally drives quite poorly on purpose. In his case, he's wrapped so tight (over-the-top-do-gooder / terrified of making a mistake), that I don't mind him loosening up a little. I'm not seeing any negative changes in his personality yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    Where that stuff can be contributing factors, some of that logic still falls back on blaming objects rather than people. In the case of kids, the onus is truly on the parents. I think you hit the nail on the head in the bolded sentence.

    FWIW, my 13 yr-old plays Grand Theft Auto with the volume down (so he doesn't have to hear the bad words). He picks fights with whomever he see's smoking, and generally drives quite poorly on purpose. I'm not seeing any negative changes in his personality yet.
    I'm assuming that you don't ignore your child, though. I'd assume that you do your best to teach him the difference between right and wrong and reality vs. fiction. I played games like GTA (and a few others) when I was younger, but my mom taught me the difference between right and wrong and I didn't grow up in a morally bankrupt home. As I said before, these types of things are only a piece of the pie, not the whole story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    If you think that violent video games don't have any effect on young impressionable minds, you need to think again. I'm not saying that video games, violent films, or music with violent lyrics causes anybody to commit crime, but I absolutely believe that it desensitizes young minds and weak minds to the content they contain. And that does negatively affect their decision making.

    If a kid grows up listening to music that glorifies things such as pre-marital sex, treating women like crap, committing crimes, committing violence against people over minor disputes, etc., it WILL affect his/her moral compass - especially if there isn't any strong guidance in their life to teach the opposite. The same goes for video games and amoral television/movies. People that don't have the developed mind to actually know better can easily view these things and believe that they are a part of normal life. There is no reason why 8 year olds should be playing games such as Grand Theft Auto (the very name should explain that, I'm not sure how parents miss that), or listening to music that glorifies violence and sex (and a list of other topics).

    It isn't the cause, but it definitely has an affect on people.
    Agree on all counts!

    But it is the parents' responsibility to control what their kids see and do - not Big Brother's. If we concede that the Government has the authority to ban Grand Theft Auto or Gang-Banger Garbage Extravaganza, we're also inescapably granting them the authority to ban Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Piers Morgan, or the Bible. (As much as I'd like to see Piers disappear, I cringe at the thought of Government shutting him down).

    FWIW
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    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    I completely agree. It is absolutely the responsibility of the parents.
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    And as both essays emphasize, psychiatrists not only admit they are bad at predicting which individuals will turn violent; they insist upon it, lest they be held liable for their failure to prevent future crimes. Hall and Friedman quote a 1983 decision in which the U.S. Supreme Court observed that "neither petitioner nor the APA suggests that psychiatrists are always wrong with respect to future dangerousness, only most of the time." Research suggests even that assessment is excessively generous.
    And these opinions are supposed to be the basis for "common sense legislation".
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    If you think that violent video games don't have any effect on young impressionable minds, you need to think again.
    It isn't the cause, but it definitely has an affect on people.
    The problem is that the facts don't support your claim. It is much like the anti-gun folks claiming that more guns cause more crime and murder, we know the facts don't support that either. Violent crime has been on a steady decrease for decades now. Violence in moves and games have been on a steady increase. If your claim was true, violence would be on the increase.
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    I didn't say that Violent video games cause crime. I said that they affect young people and their moral compass. It doesn't mean that if you play violent video games as a kid that you are going to be a violent person.

    Yes, violent crime is on the decline.

    But what about bullying in schools? What about teenagers beginning to have sex at younger and younger ages? What about sexual harrassment? What about teens beginning to drink and experiment with drugs younger and younger? What about general crime? Violent crime is only a portion of crime. What about vandalism and shoplifting? What about use of foul language in younger kids? (I've seen 4 and 5 year olds with worse language than me - part of that is the parents and the music and tv they expose their kids to). Just because violent crime is on the decline does not mean that adult rated video games, music with explicit content and mature and R rated tv and movies don't have an effect on young people.

    The drink "Lean" is an excellent example of this. A rap star sings about it, and it becomes a dangerous trend among teens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    ...[I]t is not a "First Amendment Right" for young people to play adult rated video games, or listen to music with explicit content, or watch movies that are rated R (especially not today's version of R-rating). Those are things that should be regulated. Playing video games is not a "first amendment right".
    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    I completely agree. It is absolutely the responsibility of the parents.
    You are disagreeing with yourself as you want to replace parents with regulation. You want to put legislative blinders on minors whose parents are basically outlaws. I believe that you mean well, but your cure of regulation is worse than the problem. And neither does it mitigate violence in our modern cities, schools, or military bases.

    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    I didn't say that Violent video games cause crime. I said that they affect young people and their moral compass. It doesn't mean that if you play violent video games as a kid that you are going to be a violent person.

    Yes, violent crime is on the decline.

    But what about bullying in schools? What about teenagers beginning to have sex at younger and younger ages? What about sexual harrassment? What about teens beginning to drink and experiment with drugs younger and younger? What about general crime? Violent crime is only a portion of crime. What about vandalism and shoplifting? What about use of foul language in younger kids? (I've seen 4 and 5 year olds with worse language than me - part of that is the parents and the music and tv they expose their kids to). Just because violent crime is on the decline does not mean that adult rated video games, music with explicit content and mature and R rated tv and movies don't have an effect on young people.

    The drink "Lean" is an excellent example of this. A rap star sings about it, and it becomes a dangerous trend among teens.
    At any given point in history, vulgarity makes up a large part of the limited vocabulary of tots just learning to talk. Until very recent history, and excluding some modern-day undeveloped countries at that, marriage before halfway out of the teen years is not uncommon. Today's bullying pales to the stark brutality of many times and places.
    We have to learn to separate the latest styles and entertainment fashions from the substantive moral issues of the Ten Commandments (not as a sole source of ethics but a most iconic set).
    And if it's not the place of psychiatrists, it's certainly not the place of the NRA to select "second-class" citizens. Nor, IMO, should you have the power to do so because you can't cite legitimate authority for it.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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