U.S. District Judge: Open Carrying a Handgun is Reasonable Suspicion of a Crime

This is a discussion on U.S. District Judge: Open Carrying a Handgun is Reasonable Suspicion of a Crime within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; If this is true, watch out!....Gestapo time again! http://lastresistance.com/3564/u-s-d...spicion-crime/ The totality of the circumstances here and the reasonable inferences from the facts support the existence ...

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 66
Like Tree103Likes

Thread: U.S. District Judge: Open Carrying a Handgun is Reasonable Suspicion of a Crime

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array high pockets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Georgia for now
    Posts
    4,558

    U.S. District Judge: Open Carrying a Handgun is Reasonable Suspicion of a Crime

    If this is true, watch out!....Gestapo time again!

    http://lastresistance.com/3564/u-s-d...spicion-crime/

    The totality of the circumstances here and the reasonable inferences from the
    facts support the existence of a reasonable suspicion. Bell was advised by a police
    dispatcher that a security guard had reported a suspicious person in the Park who was “carrying a gun out in the open” as he walked near a playground, who, when Bell arrived at the Park, did have a visible weapon, and who evaded Bell’s
    questions and requests for identification bearing a photograph, provided more than a sufficient basis constitutionally to detain Plaintiff.
    StormRhydr likes this.
    "If you make something idiot proof, someone will make a better idiot."

    - Anon

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member
    Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    S. Florida, north of the Miami mess, south of the Mouse trap
    Posts
    16,227
    I don't know the particulars of GA law in regards to OC. Does one have to have a CC permit to OC? If so, does GA law state that you must have that permit and ID on you, and present upon request of an LEO?

    FL has no OC for all practical purposes, but for CC one must present both your CWFL and state-accepted ID (DL, State ID, Mil ID Passport, etc.) upon request. Unless you're doing something that requires a license (driving, hunting, fishing, CC'ing), ID'ing yourself can be done orally--no "proof of ID is required.

    To me, it sounds like this guy went looking for a problem and everyone knew it, district judge included. Other judges have ruled just the opposite, that mere legal OC'ing is not ground for detain/arrest.

    As for the camo that judge obviously has never been to a WM or K-mart in GA.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  4. #3
    VIP Member
    Array oneshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    +42.893612,-082.710236 , Mi.
    Posts
    8,043
    The ONE thing that I can see that got him arrested was not having a picture ID.
    Did they have the right to demand he show a picture ID?
    IDK about Ga law, but here in Mi., you aren't supposed to have to show ID.

    I'd spend a few minutes with a lawyer, and find out if we couldn't straighten out that judge, city and cop.
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

    Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them!

    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn

  5. #4
    Member Array ugh762x39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    480
    Years ago, I had a CC for GA. When I picked it up from the Judge Magistrate (Magistrate Judge??), I asked some question about it's use. I will NEVER FORGET his answer. He got up and stepped around his desk, slapped his right hip and said...

    "The Constitution of these United States give you the right to carry a gun in full view and walk down the sidewalk with it! The only thing this card does is give you the right to put a coat over it."
    "If you can do it, you damn well better be able to look at it!".....Matt Helm

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,856
    Quote Originally Posted by ugh762x39 View Post
    Years ago, I had a CC for GA. When I picked it up from the Judge Magistrate (Magistrate Judge??), I asked some question about it's use. I will NEVER FORGET his answer. He got up and stepped around his desk, slapped his right hip and said...

    "The Constitution of these United States give you the right to carry a gun in full view and walk down the sidewalk with it! The only thing this card does is give you the right to put a coat over it."
    I understand his sentiment but he has it all wrong.

    "The Constitution of these United States is not suppose to infringe on the right to carry a gun in full view and walk down the sidewalk with it! The only thing this card does is give you the governments permission to put a coat over it."
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    5,967
    Not that im a big fan of the argument but several here are. Since when does a U.S district court over rule SCOTUS, who by the way said plainly the presence of a legally open carried firearm WAS NOT grounds for LE to even stop a person much less detain them?????
    " It is sad governments are chief'ed by the double tongues." quote Ten Bears Movie Outlaw Josie Wales

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array KyBill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Lexington, Ky
    Posts
    516
    In KY it is suspicious if someone is not armed, open or concealed, permit or not. What is WRONG with them?

  9. #8
    Senior Member Array patri0t's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Retired to the Heartland
    Posts
    1,037
    Quote Originally Posted by ugh762x39 View Post
    Years ago, I had a CC for GA. When I picked it up from the Judge Magistrate (Magistrate Judge??), I asked some question about it's use. I will NEVER FORGET his answer. He got up and stepped around his desk, slapped his right hip and said...

    "The Constitution of these United States give you the right to carry a gun in full view and walk down the sidewalk with it! The only thing this card does is give you the right to put a coat over it."
    Technically, the Judge was correct even though GA has passed illegal laws and given their State Congress authority to regulate the manner in which a citizen carries a firearm.
    No government has the Authority to infringe upon your unalienable civil rights granted by your Creator. Conversely, no government can give you authority to exercise a constitutional right.
    GA has chosen to interfere with the God-Given Right to OC by disallowing it and to to CC by imposing illegal rules, fees, etc. Our right to Keep and Bear Arms was clearly stated by our forefathers four separate times.


    The regulatory gun control laws we suffer are Illegal Laws enforced by corrupt government(s). Even the USSC (Supreme Court) is far down the list regarding authority to interpret 'our' U.S. Constitution as they please.
    This Nation is self governed by 'We the People'. Our elected servants do not Rule us. The People of the several States are Members of the Militia of their respective States and are 'Well-Regulated' by the "Legal Laws" they have allowed. They serve as the Ultimate Authority and keep Firearms for Defense of themselves and their Individual Authority/Liberty to enforce against our enemies, Foreign and Domestic.

    We always attempt to do this peacefully, by vote, but the tree of Liberty will need to be watered in blood, on occasion. The Marxists, Islamics, etc., among us will continually erode our rights.... such is the reason for our 2nd amendment. We The People will ensure our rights against those who would be tyrants.

    Unfortunately, many fed, State & Municipal entities are currently abusing 'our rights' by force and corruption.
    At present, we seem to be coming to a crossroads of tolerance of government over-reach.
    Next November, we will again attempt to evict the corrupt individuals who are ignoring our demands regarding our Liberty. Perhaps with some more recalls beforehand.
    gatorbait51 and ugh762x39 like this.
    Retired State Trooper (40 long years) 8 years State Range Instructor - BS Degree- Justice, MS Degree- Criminology
    All forms of Gun Control are Unconstitutional / Illegal and beyond the scope of the US. Supreme Court.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one"- Luke 22:36

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,487
    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I don't know the particulars of GA law in regards to OC. Does one have to have a CC permit to OC? If so, does GA law state that you must have that permit and ID on you, and present upon request of an LEO?

    FL has no OC for all practical purposes, but for CC one must present both your CWFL and state-accepted ID (DL, State ID, Mil ID Passport, etc.) upon request. Unless you're doing something that requires a license (driving, hunting, fishing, CC'ing), ID'ing yourself can be done orally--no "proof of ID is required.

    To me, it sounds like this guy went looking for a problem and everyone knew it, district judge included. Other judges have ruled just the opposite, that mere legal OC'ing is not ground for detain/arrest.

    As for the camo that judge obviously has never been to a WM or K-mart in GA.
    Must have Weapons Carry License to carry period. It's not a Concealed license - just a carry license. Yes, must have license on you while carrying. You don't have to immediately notify the police upon official contact, but I do believe you must show if requested. Can't remember for certain.

    I've seen more people in camo in the past 2 years of living here than I ever did in my 18 years in KS.
    Hopyard and gatorbait51 like this.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
    -General James Mattis, USMC

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,487
    From the article:
    They arrested him for criminal trespass. They had apparently asked him to leave the park, and he didn’t comply. The police had the blessing of the magistrate judge who told them that they had sufficient probable cause for an arrest.
    Here's where he went wrong. I lost sympathy if this is the case. When requested, leave.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
    -General James Mattis, USMC

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    26,728
    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    From the article:
    They arrested him for criminal trespass. They had apparently asked him to leave the park, and he didn’t comply. The police had the blessing of the magistrate judge who told them that they had sufficient probable cause for an arrest.
    Here's where he went wrong. I lost sympathy if this is the case. When requested, leave.
    Perhaps. Perhaps not.

    By what authority did anyone have to tell a citizen to leave a park, if simply going about his business? Based solely on being visibly armed? As though the police own the park like a shopkeep owns the store? By what authority?

    In short, if lawful to carry in parks, if doing nothing unlawful or threatening/menacing in his behavior, then there was no justification to demand he leave. It's sort of like charging someone for resisting arrest by questioning the claims in the first place, as though that explains the need for the stop. In this case, simply walking through a park armed doesn't qualify as justifying being booted out of a park, in a state where lawful carry reigns.
    Hoganbeg, Aceoky and gatorbait51 like this.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,487
    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Perhaps. Perhaps not.

    By what authority did anyone have to tell a citizen to leave a park, if simply going about his business? Based solely on being visibly armed? As though the police own the park like a shopkeep owns the store? By what authority?

    In short, if lawful to carry in parks, if doing nothing unlawful or threatening/menacing in his behavior, then there was no justification to demand he leave. It's sort of like charging someone for resisting arrest by questioning the claims in the first place, as though that explains the need for the stop. In this case, simply walking through a park armed doesn't qualify as justifying being booted out of a park, in a state where lawful carry reigns.
    If it's a public park, would the police not have the right to ask people to leave?
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
    -General James Mattis, USMC

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    26,728
    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    If it's a public park, would the police not have the right to ask people to leave?
    Would police have any right to demand I leave the public sidewalk, for simply being seen visibly carrying? If no, then why would that be kosher in a park or anywhere else where a person is lawfully carrying and not menacing or threatening anyone in any way whatsoever? What, just because they demand it unjustifiably for the power-trip it gives them? By what authority, was my question.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,487
    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Would police have any right to demand I leave the public sidewalk, for simply being seen visibly carrying? If no, then why would that be kosher in a park or anywhere else where a person is lawfully carrying and not menacing or threatening anyone in any way whatsoever? What, just because they demand it unjustifiably for the power-trip it gives them? By what authority, was my question.
    Honestly, I don't know the laws well enough to be able to tell you if they did so lawfully or not. There was a security guard, though, so it's possible that his position allows him to ask people to be removed, even through the police. I don't know the case or the laws well enough to say for sure.
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
    -General James Mattis, USMC

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    26,728
    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    Honestly, I don't know the laws well enough to be able to tell you if they did so lawfully or not. There was a security guard, though, so it's possible that his position allows him to ask people to be removed, even through the police. I don't know the case or the laws well enough to say for sure.
    As I said, it does come down to the state laws in question, whether visible carrying is fully lawful, whether parks are exempted, whether municipalities have any authority to demand some folks are more "public" than others in terms of the right to be there, or whether "just because I said so" is sufficient cause to make demands someone leave for no reason.
    gatorbait51 likes this.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

does openly carrying a gun create reasonable suspicion of a crime?

,

open carry is reasonable suspicion

,

reasonable common sense gun laws

,

u-s-district-judge-open-carrying-handgun-reasonable-suspicion-crime/?

Click on a term to search for related topics.