If your job knowingly puts you in harms way, should they deny your right to SD?

This is a discussion on If your job knowingly puts you in harms way, should they deny your right to SD? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; At my place of employment, they knowingly bring in workers from prison or jail to fill jobs. I'm not sure why they do this, but ...

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Thread: If your job knowingly puts you in harms way, should they deny your right to SD?

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    Member Array NRA1945's Avatar
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    If your job knowingly puts you in harms way, should they deny your right to SD?

    At my place of employment, they knowingly bring in workers from prison or jail to fill jobs. I'm not sure why they do this, but I hear it may be some kind of tax credit to them from the state of WI. Anyway, some of these guys are questionable, and not all of them are in there for misdemeanors, but are convicted felons, some for violent offenses and gun related charges. Of course, my company has the "No weapons allowed" sign posted at the time clocks. We can only have them in our "locked motor vehicles" which of course renders them useless and brings a risk of theft for a criminal who will then turn around and use it in an unlawful way.

    I feel a company one works for should have no right to deny one's right to SD while they knowingly put their good and law-abiding citizens in harms way from the dregs of society like this, who at anytime my turn violent for whatever reason (we just lost a guy who got reprimanded for having outside contact with someone). I would like to see a law enacted in my state whereas any place of employment that knowingly hires or brings in prisoners or convicted felons ought not to have the right to deny any law-abiding citizens their the right to SD.

    I live in the state of WI. What is the right avenue to contact to voice my concerns. Don't tell me it will never work, because if enough people cared, it would. That's how laws get passed.
    Last edited by NRA1945; November 11th, 2013 at 09:53 PM.

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    VIP Member Array high pockets's Avatar
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    I think you are going down a slippery slope if you can ever restrict who an employer can hire (other than illegal aliens) (or outer space aliens either). If you feel you are in danger, perhaps you should leave that employer. If the situation is as you state, you will probably still be elligible for unemployment compensation due to the employer contributing to an "unsafe workplace" in your opinion.

    I know my comments do not run along with your thoughts, but I hold with the idea that an employer can make the rules within his own firm, as long as they conform to the law, and that employees that disagree are free to sell their services to anyone else they may desire. In other words, if you don't like the rules, feel free to ask your employer to change his mind, but be prepared to part ways if he should decide to maintain his course of action.
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    Quote Originally Posted by high pockets View Post
    I think you are going down a slippery slope if you can ever restrict who an employer can hire (other than illegal aliens) (or outer space aliens either). If you feel you are in danger, perhaps you should leave that employer. If the situation is as you state, you will probably still be elligible for unemployment compensation due to the employer contributing to an "unsafe workplace" in your opinion.

    I know my comments do not run along with your thoughts, but I hold with the idea that an employer can make the rules within his own firm, as long as they conform to the law, and that employees that disagree are free to sell their services to anyone else they may desire. In other words, if you don't like the rules, feel free to ask your employer to change his mind, but be prepared to part ways if he should decide to maintain his course of action.
    I agree... that's why I want to change the law! Although I agree that a private business SHOULD be able to hire anyone they choose, the reality is that an employer can't refuse by law to hire someone based on race, religion, origin, etc. Why? Because somebody made it a law.

    So why the double standard? If they haven't the freedom to hire anyone they choose for any reason, why should they have the freedom to deny me my right to self defense?

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    VIP Member Array pittypat21's Avatar
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    A better question is should your job deny your right to SD regardless of whether they put you in harms way.

    Either way, the answer is "No, they shouldn't".
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
    -General James Mattis, USMC

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    OP, you have my sympathy. Really, about all you can do is make a few phone calls to the office of your state representative and
    state senator, seek a meeting, and maybe somehow convince them some legislation is needed.

    Your employer probably thinks he is doing a good deed and saving money at the same time; and probably is.

    Whether or not he is oblivious to the cost to him should someone get harmed, I have no idea. Is it possible to broach that
    question with the HR folks without risking your job?

    Sometimes we just are stuck with tough or dangerous jobs. Someone has to do them. And truthfully, someone has to
    give these convicts a way to earn a living or they can't possibly stay out.

    I have on various occasions told the story here of my brief work at a state penitentiary. Any of the convicts could have at any
    moment killed me and my colleagues along with the guards. They could have seized the facility in 15 seconds. In fact, they were walking around with knives and scissors and various tools, and these were not nice guys. The only thing keeping them in line
    was a certain knowledge that there was ZERO way they could get out; that taking hostages wouldn't help them, and would more than likely get them killed.

    All I could do is take some deep breaths and hope for the best. Sometimes we just have to make a tough choice; do the job or
    don't.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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    Member Array TDH1961's Avatar
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    Well I will probably get in trouble for this oh well. I have work two jobs that were high risk and it was against the company rules to CC. I didn't let that stop me because my logic was I was going home after work to my family and I can always find another Job. One of the jobs I worked very close with other workers and we were bump and rubbing all the time because of the space we were in. Know one ever knew that I carried the whole 4 years I worked there and I carried a full sized 40. No job is worth my life and me not returning to my family. I'm not telling you to break the rules but what my thoughts on the matter was. If you get enough people to get a law passed wonderful but what about the time in between. Look at the SmartCarry holster it works really well.

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    Lot's of angles come into play here. If you want your right to carry concealed on someones private property where they don't want you to, then you're going to have to write or call your state legislature.

    While I don't believe all people who are in jail are completely evil and beyond a second chance, if you don't like them at your work, I'd suggest you contact the local media. Leave out the carry part and play up the they don't have any cops or armed security around in case one of these guys goes mental. Public pressure might force a response of armed security, which being more expensive than whatever tax credit the company is getting, means bye bye to the working inmates.

    Again, I'm not really against working inmates, there's a few ex cons where I work and I wouldn't be nervous if I didn't carry one day for some reason around them, but each situation is different, and it only takes one time for things to get ugly.

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    You mentioned some of them weren't there for misdemeanors and some were violent offenders, do you feel threatened? I'm just asking out of curiosity. If I personally felt threatened and speaking with HR (or whoever) didn't remedy the situation, I can't say what I'd do but I'm sure you and anybody else who's reading this post can guess.
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    Distinguished Member Array Dan060's Avatar
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    If someone wanted to conceal and carry a gun,that worked for me,i would agree to it under one condition only.

    If that person ever uses the gun on my property,then i'm in no way legally responsible for their actions involving the use of a gun.They amend that to a law,then sure,and the employee would have to sign a waiver agreeing to that.If not,it's my business and there are legal issues business owners have to consider.

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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NRA1945 View Post
    I agree... that's why I want to change the law! Although I agree that a private business SHOULD be able to hire anyone they choose, the reality is that an employer can't refuse by law to hire someone based on race, religion, origin, etc. Why? Because somebody made it a law.

    So why the double standard? If they haven't the freedom to hire anyone they choose for any reason, why should they have the freedom to deny me my right to self defense?
    For the umpteenth time: you are not being discriminated against. They don't want your gun. It is a thing, an inanimate object. Get over it. Or get a new job.

    BTW: They are not denying you anything. You are making a choice to work there.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDH1961 View Post
    Well I will probably get in trouble for this oh well. I have work two jobs that were high risk and it was against the company rules to CC. I didn't let that stop me because my logic was I was going home after work to my family and I can always find another Job. One of the jobs I worked very close with other workers and we were bump and rubbing all the time because of the space we were in. Know one ever knew that I carried the whole 4 years I worked there and I carried a full sized 40. No job is worth my life and me not returning to my family. I'm not telling you to break the rules but what my thoughts on the matter was. If you get enough people to get a law passed wonderful but what about the time in between. Look at the SmartCarry holster it works really well.
    I could probably get away with carrying a small pocket pistol at work. In the 17 years I have been there, I was never once searched by anyone and there are no metal detectors or security guards. I could carry on a as needed basis, if I felt there were somebody there I was worried about. We recently had a janitor that I was told had once spent some time for murder! He ended up not working out, so they got rid of him.

    I know that some of these guys may be alright and just trying to get out of prison on good time, but I don't feel it should be foisted upon me to just shut up, do nothing and deal with the unwanted risk that I never signed on for or agreed to in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    For the umpteenth time: you are not being discriminated against. They don't want your gun. It is a thing, an inanimate object. Get over it. Or get a new job.

    BTW: They are not denying you anything. You are making a choice to work there.
    "For the umpteenth time"... Excuse me Sir, but did I bring this up with you before? I think not. Anyway, it wasn't my choice in a way, because I never agreed to work under these conditions, and it hasn't always been this way where I work. we never had convicted felons in prison working with us before until relatively recently. Things are changing for the worse, and I need to respond with the change.

    What would you do if everyplace just decided to bar you from carrying, and our 2A rights existed in theory only. Would you just cave in a give up your guns or right to carry because they had a sign? Where does one draw the line?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan060 View Post
    If someone wanted to conceal and carry a gun,that worked for me,i would agree to it under one condition only.

    If that person ever uses the gun on my property,then i'm in no way legally responsible for their actions involving the use of a gun.They amend that to a law,then sure,and the employee would have to sign a waiver agreeing to that.If not,it's my business and there are legal issues business owners have to consider.
    In WI, a business is not liable for anyone's actions involving the use of a firearm, but they may open up themselves to liability if they someone came in shooting up the place and they denied their employees the right of SD and no one could respond. Which is why some lawyers around here recommend that businesses NOT post their silly signs.
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    VIP Member Array OutWestSystems's Avatar
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    Let me get this right, you want the government to make a law to tell them to allow you to be able to carry on their property and at their workplace? You don't see that as an infringement on their rights? As a business owner I get to decide the rules for my employees, if I decide I want to make a rule that no one carries, that is might right. I don't want the government making any more decisions for me that are absolutely needed.

    You have the right to find a job that allows you to carry.

    The 2nd Amendment applies to the GOVERNMENT, not your employer, they have no obligation to support your 2nd Amendment rights.

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    Senior Member Array 19Kvet's Avatar
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    Employers need to feel more threatened by lawsuits for denying employees the ability to defend themselves than from lawsuits from the BGs. If its cheaper to allow you to carry than to hire security then that is exactly what they'll do.

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