Disarming anti's

[unrequited]

A couple friends and I had a Wii Tennis & Jenga night (don't ask heh) and I arrived shortly after going to a restaurant for dinner with another friend. I usually always CC, but was forced to OC due to VA's alcohol CC laws. I had an IWB, but forgot to untuck my shirt after dinner, and figured it wouldn't be a problem since most of my friends knew I CC'ed anyways (telling them, they'd never know when I CC'ed unless they asked, and even then I might not be willing to tell them). I hadn't realized I wasn't covered until a friend of mine asked me why I had a gun on my side (I was there for about 30 minutes before anybody really noticed), and the expected question followed. "Why do you need a gun?" That was easy to "defend" (as if I need a defense to excercise my 2nd amendment rights), and the open and healthy debate amongst friends was refreshing and fun. Then I got stumped...

"Don't you think, that by carrying a gun, you put the people (your friends) around you at greater risk should you, lose control of your gun (to a BG), or should a situation arise, escalate the situation by having another gun present (either by drawing, or being discovered by the BG)?"

The first part was somewhat defended by my statement that I choose to CC most of the time unless I legally can't (VA alcohol crap craps ugh.), so being a target of a snatch or being singled out as the first target in a holdup/etc. shouldn't be a concern. The second part was a lot harder, and I don't think I ever truly gave any answers that really satisfied myself.

I carry to protect myself, and the people I hold dear to me, but should I find myself in a situation, I don't know if I would feel right risking the lives of my friends (family? they don't know I CC yet) especially when it's against some of their wishes. In terms of a worst case scenario, I would pull to save my life or a friend's in dire need, but it's hard to rationalize a defense against the worst case scenario where I live to subdue the BG with appropriate force, only to find out that before, or shortly after, that he has fatally wounded the 3rd party present. What could/should have I said tonight, and what do you all have to say? I know there's an answer, but I can't find it right now, so I'm asking the collective opinions of people who I hope share my own feelings. Thanks, and I'd be happy to answer any/all questions you have of me if it'll help further the discussion.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Scott]

So it is risk assessment. The BG stops you and say 3 friends. The BG has a gun on you all. You wait for your moment and you draw shooting the BG who also shoots a friend. Friends may see this as bad. However, what if the next step for the BG was to have you all kneel down so he could shoot you all in the back of the head and thus killing you. No one can know that. You can only make a decision based on the fact at hand. Criminal with a gun pointed at you and your friends intimating threats to everyone.

Your friends can play out all sorts of what if scenarios to make you the loser, as could I. However, the alternative could be death. Death tending to be an irreversible condition at this point in time I will carry.

You cannot know what the BG was thinking. Your friends will try to posit that the BG only wanted your money and would then run away. You can posit that if the BG gets caught he will get life in prison under the three strikes law, so he will kill you all to avoid being identified (not sure if VA treats the 4 of you as individual felonies or only one act against four in my example). Now in VA you have the death penalty, so there may be some small deterrent, but remember it is the first one that is expensive, all the rest are free (You can only be put to death once no matter how many people you murder).

So if someone brought that up I would say that the BG has already committed murder and has nothing to lose. Then they will say you have no way of knowing that, to which I would reply, exactly and smile waiting for the realization to sink in. If it doesn't you may have to explain to them that their logic is equally flawed under the same premis.

[Landor]

There are many scenarios that can play out in a BG situation. His was just one and for every one he has you can give him 10 why carrying is a good thing. My answer to your friend would of been. OK good friend I will make you a deal. If you and I ever get in to a bad situation together I promise you I will not do anything to protect you and no matter what happens to you I will know that you wanted it that way. Then I would of given him one of these.



Weather he knows it or not, he is safer with you around.

In real life I would never say that to a friend and mean it, I would just hope it gets the point across.

[MR D]

remind him to never call the police, the BG might get the cop's gun and .... well you know, another BG with another gun...

I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!

[PapaScout]

Arguuing that your ability to defend yourself escalates a bad situation is like telling a woman to submit while being raped because it will only make it worse if she fights back. I call BS.

You are not inviting a bad situation by carrying you are better able to deal with it when it happens.

[Zundfolge]

I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!

MR D wins the thread!

I am SO going to steal that line :)

[peacefuljeffrey]

Wow, what can be said now that the prior posters have already made all the valid arguments that need to be made?

Any friend who argues that being prepared to defend oneself is more dangerous than being utterly at the mercy of whatever the criminal decides to do is an idiot. I mean, we're already talking about someone who is willing to rob a group of people at gunpoint; we're supposed to trust that although he lacks the honor that would keep him from being an armed robber, he has the honor to just leave us alone once we've given him our wealth and possessions??

And how many times should we be willing to be fleeced? What if the robber in your town begins to recognize the people he's robbed before, and now makes a habit of cornering them and robbing them further?! Ask your friends if it would still be their policy of "it's just money/jewelry/stereo equipment/a car, I can replace it" if they found themselves being robbed of a substantial amount of their wealth once a month... At some point, even the most cowardly "give-them-what-they-want" pacifist has to realize that such a tack is not sustainable!

[PapaScout]

Wow, what can be said now that the prior posters have already made all the valid arguments that need to be made?

Any friend who argues that being prepared to defend oneself is more dangerous than being utterly at the mercy of whatever the criminal decides to do is an idiot. I mean, we're already talking about someone who is willing to rob a group of people at gunpoint; we're supposed to trust that although he lacks the honor that would keep him from being an armed robber, he has the honor to just leave us alone once we've given him our wealth and possessions??

And how many times should we be willing to be fleeced? What if the robber in your town begins to recognize the people he's robbed before, and now makes a habit of cornering them and robbing them further?! Ask your friends if it would still be their policy of "it's just money/jewelry/stereo equipment/a car, I can replace it" if they found themselves being robbed of a substantial amount of their wealth once a month... At some point, even the most cowardly "give-them-what-they-want" pacifist has to realize that such a tack is not sustainable!

Well, THAT can be said.

Criminals want sheep. Tell them no.

[foreveryoung001]

I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!

I love it!

This line has just entered my permanent vocabulary.

[havegunjoe]

"Don't you think, that by carrying a gun, you put the people (your friends) around you at greater risk should you, lose control of your gun (to a BG), or should a situation arise, escalate the situation by having another gun present (either by drawing, or being discovered by the BG)?"

First I would ask when has this happened. When have you read of someones gun being taken away from them, with the excetpion of LEO's, and being used against them? I haven't! It's a rare occurance. If someone were to take my gun it is because they have me covered and I have no other option. Therefore they already have a gun and one more isn't going to change anything.

Second, I am unwilling to hope the BG doesn't kill me out of the goodness of their heart. If I have the opportunity and the means I will take them out first. Too often victims are killed for no reason, they have cooperated fully. I view any situation that involves having a gun pulled on me as a life and death situation. I prefer the death to be theirs, not mine.

[CopperKnight]

Well said, folks. The idea is that I can defend myself and not "hope" that the BG doesn't kill me. Having a gun isn't going to make a situation worse for me, just for the BG.

[retsupt99]

I don't need to argue with anybody...the gun stays with me...I'm responsibility for the safety of me and mine...PERIOD!

I may exchange a few points of view, but to a 'dedicated liberal anti', I just change the subject. No point in trying to change anyone...sure as he!! won't change me. I have friends who don't like guns and that's fine...I still and will...always carry...we discuss other issues.

I always make sure that I do not insult or minimize the feelings of others. Other people are certainly entitled to their own pont of view...

So far, this approached has served me well!

OMO...stay armed...stay safe...stand your ground!

ret

[quantum36]

Maybe you should respond something like this:

"Why should I jeopardize MY safety just because YOU choose not to defend yourself?"

"Secondly, the so called RISK you refer to presents itself when the BAG GUY shows up, regardless of whether I am armed or not. Its the BAD GUY who threatens your well being, not me. The BAD GUY! "