Watched a documentary of the Waco Siege

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Thread: Watched a documentary of the Waco Siege

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    Member Array Linny's Avatar
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    Watched a documentary of the Waco Siege

    All I can say is wow. I was about 2 years old at the time this happened, so I don't remember much. The documentary crew interviewed the remaining Branch Davidians and the FBI personnel involved in the siege. I also read the Wikipedia article about it. So here's what I took away from it.
    A defector from the Branch Davidians who was personally mad at David Koresh tipped of the ATF that David Koresh potentially had illegally converted AR's and AK's to full auto. Now IMHO I felt as if David Koresh might have been an extremist in his views and as a community. The whole thing with sharing wives and siring holy children makes you wonder. It does make one think though of the ATF/FBI's overreaction to the possibility of unlawful NFA parts.

    I mean, I think instead of doing a full tactical raid, two ATF agents could have knocked on the door and just asked for them. I don't know, I've seen LEO's avoid a big debacle that way by saying, "Look. We know you have XYZ. Just give them to us and nobody goes to prison." I'm not a law enforcement guru, but I do feel that it might have been an over-reach on the rumors of illegal full-autos. I don't know just thinking aloud here of the reaction to illegal full autos. Thoughts?
    -Linny
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    Firstly if the unconstitutional NFA had never been passed as it should not have been, none of it would have happened in the first place.

    Secondly its been a long time but I dont think they found anything they were looking for in the ashes though I may be forgetting something but if so it wasnt much.

    Thirdly the ATF was told their surprise raid was blown and told they should abort it. However because it was a chance to flex their flabby muscle for the public against what they expected to be a walk over they went ahead anyway and got their butt handed to them.

    Once that happened the rest could be seen coming. If Reno would have had her way I dont believe anybody would have walked out of there alive.

    David Koresh by the local Sheriffs own admission had never refused a search or a child services visit. And could easily have been picked up away from the compound about any time the Sheriff would have needed too.

    The whole thing was a stunt turned bad by the ATF. JMO
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    The whole Waco affair was one of the most shameful abuses of government power in our nation's history.

    Don't count me as a fan of Koresh or his followers, but the deaths of 76 people including 21 children there was utterly avoidable, and Janet Reno bears ultimate responsibility for them.

    The lame-stream media is fond of reporting about the huge cache of arms at the Branch Davidian "compound," but based on average numbers the 3 guns per man, woman and child there was strictly average by Texas standards. The claims of child abuse and weapons violations may have been founded, but were at the time mostly statutory in nature - not capital crimes nor worthy of bloodshed inflicted by ATF and subsequently FBI.
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    Yep! It still makes me mad!

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    Lots of material out there.

    Videos on YouTube:
    • Waco: The Rules Of Engagement @ Whyte Sapphire
    • Inside Waco (BBC CH4 documentary, news and dramatizations) @ PhilosophyTeacher
    • Waco: A New Revelation (2011) @ RightWingExtremist
    • Waco: The Inside Story (1995, Frontline/PBS documentary) @ NewsAlternative


    Books:
    • The Ashes of Waco: An Investigation, by Dick J. Reavis; Syracuse University Press , 1998.
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    From what I had seen the Davidians lived for 51 days as lions. I think the over-reaction from the ATF/FBI had to do a lot with no one in modern times had dared resist the government like they had. Their views were a little extreme for my liking but they were willing to fight for what they believed in all the way until the end. They could have laid down but they didn't. I did read in the end the FBI tried to place the blame on the Davidians for starting the fire and taking their own lives as a mass suicide but I don't buy it.
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    The lie the ATF used to involve JTF-6 was a clear violation of the posse comitatus act and a frightening abuse of power. The ATF, along with justice, told the anti-drug task force that the davidians were also trafficking drugs and thus Army assets could be used against them under the war on drugs policies.

    Army troops were used to kill US citizens under false pretenses. Scary stuff.

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    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    The whole Waco affair was one of the most shameful abuses of government power in our nation's history.

    Don't count me as a fan of Koresh or his followers, but the deaths of 76 people including 21 children there was utterly avoidable, and Janet Reno bears ultimate responsibility for them.

    The lame-stream media is fond of reporting about the huge cache of arms at the Branch Davidian "compound," but based on average numbers the 3 guns per man, woman and child there was strictly average by Texas standards. The claims of child abuse and weapons violations may have been founded, but were at the time mostly statutory in nature - not capital crimes nor worthy of bloodshed inflicted by ATF and subsequently FBI.
    Agree with a small caveat. The deaths of those children and adults, ultimately rests with the each and every politician and person that passed or supported the passage of the NFA. It was illegal and unconstitutional. They passed it anyway and while Reno IMO has blood on her hands as well it all drips back thru time to those folks who passed and supported it.

    Without it there would have been no bumbling ATF raid at Waco, no Ruby Ridge, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    The whole Waco affair was one of the most shameful abuses of government power in our nation's history.

    Don't count me as a fan of Koresh or his followers, but the deaths of 76 people including 21 children there was utterly avoidable, and Janet Reno bears ultimate responsibility for them.

    The lame-stream media is fond of reporting about the huge cache of arms at the Branch Davidian "compound," but based on average numbers the 3 guns per man, woman and child there was strictly average by Texas standards. The claims of child abuse and weapons violations may have been founded, but were at the time mostly statutory in nature - not capital crimes nor worthy of bloodshed inflicted by ATF and subsequently FBI.
    I have always viewed Waco as a dry run, sort of , let's see if we can do it and get away with it. They did , with the help of an eagerly compliant media.

    By the way, those fires allegedly set by the Davidians? More likely set by CS grenades exploding, it's how CS is spread .
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatorbait51 View Post
    I have always viewed Waco as a dry run, sort of , let's see if we can do it and get away with it. They did , with the help of an eagerly compliant media.

    By the way, those fires allegedly set by the Davidians? More likely set by CS grenades exploding, it's how CS is spread .
    The fires IMO were set by two actual incendiary devices found and traced back to agents on the scene. They were covered up and denied to exist until finally a few years later Reno who at least had ordered none to be used ordered an investigation. When it was clear the fact they were in the rubble and were not the Davidians but the FBIs issued to them by the military, the story changed that they were fired several hours before the fire.

    I cant link you to the video now its been to long but I did see one back then that clearly showed what was claimed to be a gas grenade fired thru a window, the flash of the grenade and the fire starting instantly at that point , upwind so the fire would be driven by the wind thru the building.

    LE on the ground there were intent on revenge for the killing of several agents during the initial raid. There was never any doubt short of Reno calling a halt to operations that a massacre was coming. Even then President Clinton did not want to use military equipment and Renos tactics but finally relented to Renos nagging.

    If Slick Willie was smart enough to have second thoughts about Renos plan that should be proof enough she was off her rocker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linny View Post
    From what I had seen the Davidians lived for 51 days as lions. I think the over-reaction from the ATF/FBI had to do a lot with no one in modern times had dared resist the government like they had. Their views were a little extreme for my liking but they were willing to fight for what they believed in all the way until the end. They could have laid down but they didn't. I did read in the end the FBI tried to place the blame on the Davidians for starting the fire and taking their own lives as a mass suicide but I don't buy it.
    The Fed is good at lying to cover up their screw ups (Look at Ruby Ridge). The incendiary CS gas used is what caused the fire. Janet Reno will live in infamy as an enemy of the principles our country was built upon.
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    Koresh was often seen in town- had they wanted to they could have simply arrested him there- that was not "the goal" obviously. The "weapons charges" (obviously "trumped") were an "excuse" the real "problem" was they were a "right wing Religious group/fanatics" (sound familiar???) who had to be "dealt with in such a way as to send a clear message to the People" . (same with Ruby Ridge btw)

    So much for "freedom of religion" in the USA (unless you're of certain faiths - even those with violent ties) that is "different" it seems- NOT that I agree with several things that may have been going on within the compound - at all. It is not the role of Gov to "decide what religions practice openly " and which ones do not get allowed to even live. I think they "overplayed" their hands and should know that by now - the cost was WAY Too High (IMO) but it serves as a reminder that tyranny isn't something the USA is immune from
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    Firstly if the unconstitutional NFA had never been passed as it should not have been, none of it would have happened in the first place.

    Secondly its been a long time but I dont think they found anything they were looking for in the ashes though I may be forgetting something but if so it wasnt much.

    Thirdly the ATF was told their surprise raid was blown and told they should abort it. However because it was a chance to flex their flabby muscle for the public against what they expected to be a walk over they went ahead anyway and got their butt handed to them.

    Once that happened the rest could be seen coming. If Reno would have had her way I dont believe anybody would have walked out of there alive.

    David Koresh by the local Sheriffs own admission had never refused a search or a child services visit. And could easily have been picked up away from the compound about any time the Sheriff would have needed too.

    The whole thing was a stunt turned bad by the ATF. JMO
    You are absolutely correct on every point you made here Ghost.
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    From what I have seen people always seem to be in the "government is evil" or "Koresh is evil" camps. The search warrants were questionable at best but that does not give someone the right to open fire on the people serving those warrants. The tactics used were very heavy handed, but that still does not give someone the right to open fire on the agents. For both of those, that is why we have courts.

    The reality is that BOTH sides acted poorly. I do not believe the government intentionally set the fire and I don't believe the Davidians did, I think it was a very sad accident. Before that point, both sides could have done much better to end the stand-off but neither wanted to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OutWestSystems View Post
    From what I have seen people always seem to be in the "government is evil" or "Koresh is evil" camps. The search warrants were questionable at best but that does not give someone the right to open fire on the people serving those warrants. The tactics used were very heavy handed, but that still does not give someone the right to open fire on the agents. For both of those, that is why we have courts.

    The reality is that BOTH sides acted poorly. I do not believe the government intentionally set the fire and I don't believe the Davidians did, I think it was a very sad accident. Before that point, both sides could have done much better to end the stand-off but neither wanted to.
    Is this the same courts that rules in favor eminent domain for greedy corporations such as Walmart or auto factories?

    The government knew what the CS gas would do. Also the agents open fired first. BIG difference.
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