Security guard shoots at, wounds club patron

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/met....52c0f37c.html

Security guard shoots at, wounds club patron

Web Posted: 02/05/2007 08:40 AM CST

Marvin Hurst
KENS 5 Eyewitness News

Police are investigating a shooting at a gentlemen's club where a security officer drew his weapon and fired several times at a patron, hitting him twice.

The patron, shot in the arm and the back, is recovering at Brooke Army Medical Center.

The shooting happened around 4 a.m. at the Paradise for Gentleman's Club after the security guard was told the patron had a gun.

The guard found the man urinating on the front of the business, the handle of a large caliber automatic handgun sticking up out of his pants.

"When he went to get custody of the weapon a struggle ensued," said Sgt. Patrick Day with the San Antonio Police Department. "The security guard feared that the subject was going to get a hold of his gun. The security guard backed away and fired two shots."

Both guns are in police custody. Police have not determined if the shooting was justified.

Seems this will hinge on where this establishment derives its income. If 50% or less comes from alcohol, and if that business doesn't specifically disallow via a 30.06-format sign the carry of a concealed firearm, then being shot for carrying (even scuffling if resisting being disarmed) seems hard to justify. As well, fear of someone carrying isn't the same as fear of life when someone's drawing down on you (as in: perhaps this 'guard' simply needs better training and therapy for better managing his fears). Not enough known, yet.

Only time will tell how this will turn out. The patron was drunk and should have never had a gun under the circumstances. In most states its illegal to bring a gun into a bar. The bouncer could have called the cops and this might prevented a shooting. Im supprised the bouncer had a gun. GUNS AND BOOZE DON'T MIX.

Based on the limited info posted, I think the bouncer will come out OK.

first off, unless you're an officer of the law you have no business trying to take a gun off of somebody. No wonder a struggle happened. What if you were in Target, someone saw you bend over and your gun showed. Next thing you know the security guard is behind you trying to take your gun off of you.

I don't condone the guy carrying while drinking at all.. but... nowhere in the story did it say he was drinking.. I'm not saying he wasn't either. But what it really comes down to it is the security guard heard that the guy had a gun. That's all, and this is the reaction that happened from that. How many other security guards will act the same way? And people wonder why some security guards get called rent-a-cops. They try to take actions into their own hands. I don't know about in Texas, but nobody has the right to disarm you EXCEPT cops, emt's, fire fighters, and other sworn peace officers.

Is a security guard a sworn peace officer? i don't think they are. They work in a store, and know the rules of the store. If someone can prove they sometimes can be sworn peace officers, I'd sure like to see that. Until then, they aren't in my book.

So two lessons to be learned. A: don't drink (if the guy was drinking) and carry. B: Don't be a security guard playing stasky & hutch. Call police if you think something like this is going on. You just don't go up from behind people and try to disarm them. If you're a cop, you're going to tell the person to keep their hands up, etc, and that you are going to disarm them. but i don't think that's how this situation was handled.

I know some places hire off duty police to do security. That can get really sticky too at times.

OK, Speaking from a Bar Bouncers point of view. As some of you know I took a job at a rough bar as a bouncer last month. So far I have only had to actually get phisicall with two people and once i had leverage on them, they stoped resisting.

This bouncer should have alerted police. If the man was outside of the club, peeing on the front of the club. The best thing to do would be to call police asap, not let this guy back into the club and try to keep other bar patrons away from that exit that lead to the man with the gun. Even though I carry while on duty I act as if I do not carry unless my life is in danger. I would not go and "disarm" anyone outside of my club. Remember what happend to Wyatt Earp and his gang when they went to disarm the Clanton and McLowry Boys at the OK coral?

I think the bouncer will come out ok, but will probubly face some kind of slap on the wrist for trying to take matters into his own hands. There is not enough info as of yet... but Personally I would not have approached unless this person was a "loose" cannon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ccw9mm

Seems this will hinge on where this establishment derives its income. If 50% or less comes from alcohol, and if that business doesn't specifically disallow via a 30.06-format sign the carry of a concealed firearm, then being shot for carrying (even scuffling if resisting being disarmed) seems hard to justify. As well, fear of someone carrying isn't the same as fear of life when someone's drawing down on you (as in: perhaps this 'guard' simply needs better training and therapy for better managing his fears). Not enough known, yet.

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Well, the club is all nude and doesn't sell alcohol, two, even if he is concealed to carry, you are not allowed to carry if you have been, or are consuming alcohol. Plus, how are you going to justify shooting the guy who is *******? obviously, his hands are occupied. I think thesecurity guard has a weirdo protective complex and was pissed off someone was ******* on his crappy ragged-out low-life club. Not to mention the correct way to handle the situation would have been to ask the man to leave and issue a trespass warning so he doesn't come back, ever. The worst possible thing to do was to reach for his weapon. Worse case, he wasn't drinking, was in full compliance with the law in terms of carry, and he felt threatened by the security guard and popped him dead on the spot. Too bad there's two stories, with stupidity displayed on both ends, it's amazing one of them is not dead.

I'm gonna add my $.02 to this, since I do work as a bouncer (not at any "gentleman's establishments", just college bars and clubs).

In Ohio, you can't have a firearm in a place that sells alcohol for consumption, so I can't carry while working, but especially on really crowded days I wouldn't really want to anyway, one more thing to keep track of while I am trying to get a jerk out the door. About the only times I would want one on me are walking our waitresses to the ir cars at night, and maybe after we close and are watching the bartenders count the till.

If there is a gun in my bar, I'm callin the cops. Not gonna try to disarm somebody, not safe enough for ther patrons, or myself. I'll leave that to law enforcement.

Second of all, the guy was outside the club. The policy of every bar I work at (all 4 of em) is that if someone is causing problems inside get them outside, if they get violent, defend yourself and get them outside. If you get them outside and square off with him in the street, you will probably be arrested for assault, and will be fired from the job. Once the person if outside the building/off the property, don't worry about it, and do not engage them. Yeah someone takin a leak on the bar wouldn't make me happy, but they are quite possibly off the property, so all I can do is call in the police. If he was outside and we thought he had a gun, I'd prolly call the cops and lock the doors until I heard sirens and screeching brakes outside.

The fact the guy was urinating on a building in public leads me to believe he as intoxicated, so he shouldn't of been carrying (could be wrong, just my gut on that).

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Originally Posted by buckeye07

I'm gonna add my $.02 to this, since I do work as a bouncer (not at any "gentleman's establishments", just college bars and clubs).

In Ohio, you can't have a firearm in a place that sells alcohol for consumption, so I can't carry while working, but especially on really crowded days I wouldn't really want to anyway, one more thing to keep track of while I am trying to get a jerk out the door. About the only times I would want one on me are walking our waitresses to the ir cars at night, and maybe after we close and are watching the bartenders count the till.

If there is a gun in my bar, I'm callin the cops. Not gonna try to disarm somebody, not safe enough for ther patrons, or myself. I'll leave that to law enforcement.

Second of all, the guy was outside the club. The policy of every bar I work at (all 4 of em) is that if someone is causing problems inside get them outside, if they get violent, defend yourself and get them outside. If you get them outside and square off with him in the street, you will probably be arrested for assault, and will be fired from the job. Once the person if outside the building/off the property, don't worry about it, and do not engage them. Yeah someone takin a leak on the bar wouldn't make me happy, but they are quite possibly off the property, so all I can do is call in the police. If he was outside and we thought he had a gun, I'd prolly call the cops and lock the doors until I heard sirens and screeching brakes outside.

The fact the guy was urinating on a building in public leads me to believe he as intoxicated, so he shouldn't of been carrying (could be wrong, just my gut on that).

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You and I think alike! Us bouncers have enough to worry about. Getting shot should not be one of them. Our local Police like to "stop by" alot just to see how things are going.

I think the security guard is going to have some problems. First, the guy was outside the place so even if it was a bar, he wasn't in violation of Texas statute. Second, while he may have been drunk and therefore in violation of another Texas statute, the security guard really didn't know that and in any case is not an LEO. Third, he wasn't posing a threat to anyone. Just having a gun doesn't constitute a deadly threat. Fourth, the guard started the action that led to the shooting by trying to relieve the guy of his gun. Not a good choice. It will be interesting to see how this comes out.

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Originally Posted by jednp

Is a security guard a sworn peace officer? i don't think they are. They work in a store, and know the rules of the store. If someone can prove they sometimes can be sworn peace officers, I'd sure like to see that. Until then, they aren't in my book.

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Depends on your state/where you are at. In college I worked for two years as an armed security officer. This company also employed Special Deputies. They were paid by the private security company, but they had FULL powers of arrest *while on their assigned property/detail* only. Their arrest powers came from the local sheriff, but all liability and training was paid for by the company. When not on the clock, they can only intervene in felonies in progress, such as armed robbery, rape in progress etc. Even then, they were advised to avoid intervening unless absolutely unavoidable, which is basically the same set of guidelines that CCW'ers should operate under.

Their uniforms were the same as ours, except their patches were the same as the regular deputies, and their badges said "Special Deputy" instead of "Security Officer". They can and did arrest people on property, and resisting them would yield the same response and charges as would result from trying to fight a regular police officer or deputy.

Be careful...the "rent-a-cop" may in fact be legally authorized to make arrests, just like any other LEO.