LEOs harassing gun owners - Page 2

LEOs harassing gun owners

This is a discussion on LEOs harassing gun owners within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I'm trying to temper my reaction to this outrageous incident. Generally, I am a fan of LEO's. In this case, it sounds like a little ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array Ranger's Avatar
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    I'm trying to temper my reaction to this outrageous incident. Generally, I am a fan of LEO's. In this case, it sounds like a little skewed local subculture. Since certain stuff tends to roll downhill, I wonder how helpful the department's administration can be in this case.

    To the defense of the LEO's, they have spent most of their lives (and careers) living in a society that sees a man with a gun, especially open carrying in a public place, as a yahoo at best, and a serious danger at worst.

    Obviously, they should know and follow the law and not the feelings of the public or themselves. But life is a constant clash of what people should do and what they actually do, when their emotions and biases kick in. Take into account public pressure and fear of job security, and you have formula for just this type of outrageous injustice.


  2. #17
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    We don't know how good or bad the attitude of the guys was. They could have been acting up and making things a lot worse than it needed to be. I assume they were civil and well behaved but can't say I know this for fact, in which case the LEOs were merely reacting not instigating.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Though, claiming the situation was manufactured by citizens doing what the law allows is plainly too much. Whatever the intent of the folks, they were in fact legally carrying (according to the basic facts of this case). Impressions by sheep in the restaurant and the LEO's misrepresentations don't alter that.
    I will stand by my statement on manufactured , note that i did not ascribe any motive or intent to the behavure , tho i of course have opinions lol .
    Just what did the le officers or other citizens mis represent ? There were in fact folks there in a group carrying firearms . This does imho bear checking out . I am not excusing the attitude and corrispondance of the officers involved , but nor am i excusing the idiots who went whining to vcdl because they were contacted by le and then thrown out of the restraunt by the owner .
    Hell i would have threw them out too for creating a disturbance that affects my customers and repeat business , and no one is more pro 2nd than i am .
    Everyone on site here acted like idiots , but no one was arrested , detained , or even imho harassed, the contact by le was a legitamate call .
    We as ccw holders are and should be held to a higher standard , if not legaly at least by peer pressure . If as a group the folks involved cannot come up with a plan to eat a meal without scareing the other folks in the restraunt i truely question thier ability to formulate a plan to effectively use the handguns they carry .
    As i stated , the only ones so far i see being reasonable is the LE administration and possibly vcdl for attempting to get to the facts of the issue .
    All the indignent crys of " its legal " in the world will not change the fact that its neither common , nor smart to go as a group with pistols hanging out , into almost any public venue . Police will be called , and likely the officer assigned to the call will be on par with the idiots seen here , many are .
    A uniform is no sign of intelligance , ethics , honor or common sense ( tho we like to think it is and it really shoud be ). I could easily see this situation going south to the point folks went to jail on a catch all " contempt of cop " charge such as disorderly conduct . This did not happen in this instance .
    I hold both sides equaly responsible , and it saddens me since i would like for us as a group to rise to the standards of common sense and responsibility that a ccw implys .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPnTX View Post
    I just wish someone would explain to me the rationale behind not being able to carry concealed but being able to open carry. It doesn't make any sense to me. Of course, now that I think about it you might be much less likely to get into a bar room brawl with a guy that has a 1911 strapped to his hip.
    Uspn makes good sense. why the open carry???? Out of sight , out of mind and this whole thing would have happened. Sinse it was a resturant and no alcolhol was consumed I don't see a problem. I think the cop was way out of line. the cop should have asked the men if they would please keep the guns in the car due to a patron of the resturant throwing a fit. this could have been avoided if the cop had used a little common sense and courtesy.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    After reading the FOIA .pdf file posted in this thread, the situation made me even more sad. The police department involved was more worried about a lawsuit than training it's officers to actually know the law. From the way the police e-mails sound, the one officer coerced the owner into asking them to leave.

    I agree with some that this is an unusual appearance, but it's a legal appearance. This sort of thing is never going to be socially accepted with people continuously rolling over to public whim. If it's a right and it is legal, there should be no problem at all.

    Private citizens should be allowed to do as they wish within the constraints of the law and in the case of CCW permit holders doing as they were legally required to do to dine in that restaurant, we should support them on it. Especially after reading the one jerk repeatedly calling them assclowns.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    My understanding of the open carry is that it is a loophole that the anti crowd did not get closed . They threw a fit about concealed carry where alcohol is sold or served , but did not realise that open carry was possible there . So the residents are faced with the choice of dis arming , open carry , or commiting a crime . One state ( i forget which off the top of my head ) has a law that you must open carry in your vehicle , but iirc cannot out of it . Gun laws seldom make much sense imho lol .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  7. #22
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    Just so we all understand each other...in VIRGINIA...(where this is applicable to the OP)

    VA code (listed below) prohibits the carrying of concealed firearms:

    18.2-308, para J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.

    In other words--in VIRGINIA--as much as we would like to carry concealed for all the reasons listed above...we CAN'T

    Additionally--the point about "lawsuit shopping" is absolutely false. To my knowledge (and those in VA who have kept an eye on this longer than I have)--the only time VCDL has hinted or threatened a lawsuit (vs a lawsuite) was to force the municipality/PD/SO to obey the state law (thank God...and VA Assembly for pre-emption). It has never been for financial gain. All members for VCDL are volunteers--with jobs and families to provide for.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Right sig , and most likely that will be the situation for the forseeable future , If attention if brought before the legislature there is a good chance that all carry in such places would be prohibited . Across the country the sad fact is that right now the chances of expanding gun rights legislation does not look promising .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  9. #24
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    I'm doing this in bold so there will be no chance of being misunderstood.

    IN VIRGINIA IT IS ILLEGALTO CARRY A CONCEALED WEAPON INTO ANY RESTAURANT THAT SERVES ALCOHOL. Open carry is required!

    Yes, it is a STUPID law, but we in Virginia are required to obey it!

    In Va. all alcohol is controlled by the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board (VaABC). We also don't have bars, any place that serves booze, must also serve food!

    The prohibition against carrying weapons in ABS licensed establishments; Section 18.2-308(J)(3), is limited to 'concealed weapons'. There is no exception to this prohibition for persons with concealed weapons permits. The plain language of the statute would therefore NOT prohibit the open carrying of a weapon unless prohibited by the owner of the establishment in accordance with Section 18.2-308(O)
    .

    Some here have complained that 'both sides' screwed up ..........WRONG........ they were just OBEYING the law! Even when these guys tried to prove their side by showing documentation, the LEOs in this case continued to denigrate & threaten them. (read the FOIA info linked in a previous post & you'll see that the LEOs involved DID NOT KNOW THE LAW!)

    Should we just NOT carry at all if we can't carry concealed? To me that's the ultimate hippocracy. We are trying to get this law changed, but so far no luck.

    Should we be relegated to eating out, but only eating fast food -------OR------disarm in order to eat in a place like Applebee's? The only other alternative is to BREAK THE LAW.

    (it looks like Sigguy229 & I were typing at the same time)

    I'm also a VCDL member.
    Last edited by goawayfarm; February 14th, 2007 at 10:23 AM.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

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  10. #25
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Goaway I for one have not argued that what the ccw holders did was illegal , only unwise and ill considered . Nor have i said that the police were in the right here .
    Now i dont know how the folks were armed up and carrying . That being said there is such a thing as descretion .
    A deep cover bug such as a p3at or pm9 imho is the answer here . Nor am I advocating breaking the law . Take off your primairy and secure it in the car , tuck the deep cover into your waistline where your crackberry or cellphone hangs , or even put it into the case if its big enough and leave the device in the car . You then are obeying the letter of the law in such a manner that the sheep likely will not notice that it is not the device expected . A 1911 , glock , sig ect.. in a pancake owb tho is almost garonteed to be noticed by someone and commented on . Which brings us back to the situation that occured . Legal yes , wise NO and entirely predictable . Its also legal to run thro a corral waveing your arms and screaming scareing the sheep , but you can expect to be confronted by the rancher , and asked to leave . The folks involved here do not come across ( at least to me ) as shining examples of responsibility on either side of the issue . The officer(s) or the ccw holders should have suggested that the discussion ajourn to someplace quiet , and out of the audiance view/hearing to discuss this . Its amazing how far that will go to negate egos when discussing things since no party has to admit they are wrong in front of a " fan club " .
    I do feel for you guys with this restriction and thankfully i dont have to deal with it .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G View Post
    Uspn makes good sense. why the open carry???? Out of sight , out of mind and this whole thing would have happened. Sinse it was a resturant and no alcolhol was consumed I don't see a problem. I think the cop was way out of line. the cop should have asked the men if they would please keep the guns in the car due to a patron of the resturant throwing a fit. this could have been avoided if the cop had used a little common sense and courtesy.
    I am quite certain that if VA law allowed concealed carry in restaurants, the individuals in question would have, and this entire cluster foxtrot would have been avoided. However, since VA law requires that if you are going to carry a firearm into an alcohol serving establishment it must not be concealed.

    I, for one, worry less about the guns I can see more so than the ones I can't see. Those with blinders on believe that if they can't see it, it isn't there.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array briansmech's Avatar
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    i dunno redneck.

    were rosa park's action unwise or ill considered?

    how bout the boston tea party, unwise? ill considered?


    Nor am I advocating breaking the law . Take off your primairy and secure it in the car , tuck the deep cover into your waistline where your crackberry or cellphone hangs , or even put it into the case if its big enough and leave the device in the car . You then are obeying the letter of the law in such a manner that the sheep likely will not notice that it is not the device expected .
    that sounds much more close to breaking the law than what actually occurred... tuck the deep cover into your waistline, in such a manner that the sheep likely will not notice sounds an awful lot like concealment...

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by briansmech View Post
    tuck the deep cover into your waistline, in such a manner that the sheep likely will not notice sounds an awful lot like concealment...
    Not to stirr the pot any more than it has already been, but that would meet the definition of the law here in NC. VA may be a different story, but I would be willing to bet that if it isn't, it is pretty darn close, maybe too close.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Here in colorado we do not have a rigid deffinition of just how much gun has to be visible to be considered un concealed generaly tho it is accepted that if the grip area is visible, and identifiable then it is not a concealed handgun . Just because someont sees a cell phone case and assumes that what they are seeing is a cellphone when it is in fact a weapon does not make it a concealed weapon .
    I just thought i would mention that lol . Anyway i have voiced my views as articulately as i can on the issue(s) involved here and stand by them . Ill now leave it to yall to hash out .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  15. #30
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    My take is rather simple; add two groups of assclowns together, and you got one big group of assclowns. One herd of assclowns can stir up a big dust storm.
    Last edited by SIXTO; February 14th, 2007 at 01:21 PM.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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