LEOs harassing gun owners

[buckeye .45]

One state ( i forget which off the top of my head ) has a law that you must open carry in your vehicle , but iirc cannot out of it . Gun laws seldom make much sense imho lol .

That's Ohio RR, open carry is legal, but in most area's (cities) highly discouraged and asking for unwanted attention. Allthough it changes next month so we can conceal in our vehicles.

Sounds like this incident could have been handled much better all around.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[PaulG]

i dunno redneck.

were rosa park's action unwise or ill considered?

how bout the boston tea party, unwise? ill considered?

Great case in point!

I am always amazed at the polarization of pro-gun people into the open carry vs concealed carry camps.

It appears that the people who usually open carry are very tolerant of the concealed carry people. But many of the concealed carry proponents are downright hostile toward open carriers.

I hear two main arguments for this: 1) open carry is tactically inferior and 2) open carry will only upset people and jeapordize our rights to carry.

As to the first argument, I will concede the first point without argument. The element of surprise is definitely lost with open carry and gun grabs are also a risk.

But as to the second argument, the short version of my position is that a right is like a muscle, “use it or lose it”.

I don’t mean to flame anyone or cause a firestorm, but those of you who have condemned these guys for carrying openly do not understand the political and social climate of Virginia.

While I normally conceal, I have carried openly quite a bit. I have NEVER had a problem with citizens or LEO’s.

The original report as shown in an alert from VCDL, shows that the “former marine” who objected to these 7 carrying openly, sat quietly for about and hour and finished his meal with his wife and then upon leaving called 911. Does that sound like he was in fear for his or his family's safety? He told the dispatcher that it was probably legal but that he wasn’t comfortable with this. The dispatcher informed him that indeed it was perfectly legal.

The other patrons paid no attention to the 7 until the police started their harassment.

I don’t know if you are aware of it or not, but anyone with a concealed carry permit honored by Virginia can carry (open or concealed) in the Capitol building in Richmond. Several legislators also carry.

I have a question for you guys who think the 7 acted unwisely. Should we here in Virginia give up the strides we have made with respect to our 2nd Amendment rights and start carrying concealed only? Or maybe should we continue to educate people?

I think trying to placate the sheeple is a BIG mistake. Look at it this way, open carry is another battle the anti’s have to take on. If open carry is not done, then they can concentrate all of their efforts into fighting concealed carry.

“They came for the Jews and I was not a Jew so I didn’t object. Then they came for the Catholics and I was not a Catholic so I didn’t object. Then they came for me and there was no one left to object.”

Keep in mind that any argument you can make about why open carry is irresponsible, the anti's can make the same argument about why concealed carry is also irresponsible.

Sorry if I have hijacked the thread. The real point to this story is that the Manassas police acted irresponsibly.

[P95Carry]

Good points Paul - and there is no doubt the open/concealed arguments will always go on but you do nicely clarify some aspects pertinent to VA.

Any views re open/concealed are acceptable here on CC if kept measured and courtious but some might have seen in the past the debate can get heated beyond what we will permit. So, do your best folks to help us maintain our standard on this and other more contentious issues, as generally you do and we are grateful for that.

[Redneck Repairs]

I wont address the thread again , but i will address the mod team ( Chris specificly ) I have tried to maintain a courtious discourse with all partys here , My views are apparently somewhat contriversial for the forum on this particular incident . While opposing views are just as valid as mine , I stand by mine with respect for thoes who differ . I suspect my lack of ability to articulate my entire position is more of the differance than any factual one . Re reading my posts they seem slanted that the ccw holders were soley responsible which is not the case . I do howeaver hold us as responsible adults to a higher standard than i do even any gvt agency . Mistakes were made here ( both in real life and my ability to express my opinions ) that is why i felt it best to just read and post no further . Members have been unfailingly polite in any dis agreement with me , but it has reached the point i only stur the pot by posting more on the issue . Folks rightfully feel strongly about the issues involved here, but nothing is to be gained for me now other than to respectfully agree to disagree with some members on this thread lol .

Be well all and i will read because i am truely intrested in how this works out , and how we as a community deal with the aspects of it .

[Miggy]

Miggy---I hear what you are saying...but the VA law is clear--in VA, CHP (or CCW) holders are *prohibited by law* from carrying concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol. There have been very diligent efforts in getting this law overturned in the state assembly--but then the antis come back with "Guns in bars! They're evil! What about the children!?"

Also note in the e-mail where references to families and children in the restaurant were made...kind of disingenuous.

If the law allowed for concealed carry in restaurants--we would do it

Ooops! My bad misreading gents and my apologies. And it is a rather stupid law. Same as gun, they put the blame on alcohol rather than the person.
In the and, the real ***clowns were the legislators

[PaulG]

I wont address the thread again , but i will address the mod team ( Chris specificly ) I have tried to maintain a courtious discourse with all partys here , My views are apparently somewhat contriversial for the forum on this particular incident

You and I are on different sides of the fence on this issue but that's OK. The thing I like about this forum is that we can discuss opinions courtiously and either learn from each other or at least agree to disagree.

By the way, some comments you have made on other posts have caused me to stop and re-think my position on various issues and for that I thank you.

[Sunshine]

Here's a link to an ongoing "diary" of open carry experiences in restaurants in Virginia. Start at the bottom for the more descriptive entries.

http://www.bighammer.net/gunblog.html

[p8riot]

I ALWAYS wear a cover garment (coat, windbreaker, or loose fitting shirt), I don't care if it's 100F outside. I usually go into these places concealed, and wait to take off my coat until I'm seated. If it looks like I'm gonna have to wait a while, I step outside (usually for a cigar). When I get to my table (I prefer booths in everything but the finer establishments (Ruth's Chris, et. al)) I uncover and sit with my strong side away from general view. I re-cover when I am done and heading out the door.

[HotGuns]

My thoughts on the situation after reading the documents recoivered under the FOIA and some of the comments from various posters on the situation...and its worth at least two cents...

First and foremost, if it wasnt against the law to carry openly in the resturaunt, then the police should have NOT made an issue of it.

At the very most a "check" to see and evaluate the situation would have been acceptable. A DLC should have been about the extent of the investigation. Upon learning that everything was ""OK" they
should have counseled both the citizen that called it in and the resturaunt owner about the "law" and how it pertained to the folks carrying openly in a resturaunt.

Secondly,anyone elses "opinion" of what is right or wrong is irrevelant. No laws were broken. Therefore, as long as one is legal, they should not have to be subjected to ANY abuse whatsoever, whether it be from the police,patrons of the resturaunt or the owner himself.

It appears that from reading some of the transcripts that some of the cops may have taken the fact that someone was openly carrying a bit personal. Assumptions and loud opinions are what gets some cops in trouble for various reasons and some of them stay in trouble because they never really learn when to speak or not speak.

It also appears that some communication skills could have gone a long way here to avoid a potentially sticky situation. It is sticky because NO laws were broken, yet it appears that some cops may have been afflicted with diarreah of the mouth at a time that they should have been quiet.

Once it was determined that the gun toters were in fact legal, that should have been the end of it. It was not, and now the dept. can be sued or at least embarressed because some of their officers either didnt understand the law, didnt know about it, or didnt care that it was legal or not and offered their opinoins of it in public....which is exactly why they are in hot water over it.

It would seem to me that some remedial training about the law is in order, along with basic communucation skills.

In short, a citizen that is within the law, should recieve NO grief for anything as long as he is within the law, whether anyone agrees with it or not.

Thats may take on it...from what I've read.

[paramedic70002]

I ALWAYS wear a cover garment (coat, windbreaker, or loose fitting shirt), I don't care if it's 100F outside. I usually go into these places concealed, and wait to take off my coat until I'm seated. If it looks like I'm gonna have to wait a while, I step outside (usually for a cigar). When I get to my table (I prefer booths in everything but the finer establishments (Ruth's Chris, et. al)) I uncover and sit with my strong side away from general view. I re-cover when I am done and heading out the door.

A word of warning, although I would understand what you're saying:

The law says no concealed carry on the premises. That includes the parking lot as well as walking to your table. Don't let some over eager LEO ruin your day!

I've found that if I just drop my elbow over my sidearm and keep it there, the grazing sheep will have no clue that they are inches away from a gun.

[MattInFla]

I'm still troubled by the fact that these citizens, who had done nothing wrong, are "assclowns" to the officers involved, and that the characterization of these law abiding citizens as "assclowns" was not challenged by any of the people involved in the email exchange.

Given that these email messages are available under FOIA, I am amazed by the conduct displayed.

Matt

[PaulG]

A word of warning, although I would understand what you're saying:

The law says no concealed carry on the premises. That includes the parking lot as well as walking to your table. Don't let some over eager LEO ruin your day!

I've found that if I just drop my elbow over my sidearm and keep it there, the grazing sheep will have no clue that they are inches away from a gun.

You are mistaken about the parking lot. They are not licensed to serve alcohol in the parking lot. I guess if they have an out door sitting area, you are most likely prohibited from concealling as soon as you enter that area. However, walking thru the door and to a table before removing the cover is DEFINITELY illegal.

[briansmech]

It appears that from reading some of the transcripts that some of the cops may have taken the fact that someone was openly carrying a bit personal. Assumptions and loud opinions are what gets some cops in trouble for various reasons and some of them stay in trouble because they never really learn when to speak or not speak.

interesting....

i wonder how many, if any, LEO's have some kinda complex along the lines of "I'M the puh-leese, only 'I' should be allowed to carry the ultimate phallic symbol..." wonder if there was a posse mentality going on here, the more i read. certainly seems like in some of the email's they were back pedalling.

no, cant say i agree in any way with the way the PD handled this.

in the emails, they demonstrate contempt for the law, and go so far as to insinuate it was written erroneously - see the quip about carrying concealed in a bar by the officer in charge on the scene, where he says "AND conveniently excluded is ANY language related to openly carrying". conveniently? does this police officer not understand what goes into writing law? its not a mistake, as he subliminaly seems to be implying to me...


further, i dont believe its an officers place to make assumptions for the public, as demonstrated by his comment "because i just cannot imagine any bar owner that wouldnt want a$$clowns with guns kicked out." wonder what kind of experience this person has as a bar owner? are police academy's now including "What The Public Wants 101" as part of their course?

no offence to any LEO's that feel otherwise, but assumptions on the job should be kept to a minimum if those assumptions arent based on actual training. if you arent told, officially, to make certain assumptions, you don't. at least, thats the gist of how i've always understood it. assumptions will a) kill someone or b) put you into a new job, if not a cell.

and self-interpretation of law is a big no-no. there are tons of law school students on the other end of that radio, in any jurisdiction i've ever seen. "conveniently".... boy, that officer has some issues...i cant say i feel safe with someone that questions the law he's sworn to uphold with such cynicism out there enforcing it...

[denverd0n]

i wonder how many, if any, LEO's have some kinda complex along the lines of "I'M the puh-leese, only 'I' should be allowed to carry the ultimate phallic symbol..."

Well, I think it is undeniable that there are SOME police officers who have that attitude. Luckily for all of us, they are a very small minority. For the most part, even other police officers don't tolerate them very well, and I think most of them don't last very long as police officers.

It does, however, appear that this sort of attitude might have been at least somewhat in play in this particular case. Certainly the "assclowns" comment ought to get someone fired.

[SIGguy229]

Unfortunately, in Manassas, the PO with that kind of bad attitude may be the majority...