LEOs harassing gun owners - Page 4

LEOs harassing gun owners

This is a discussion on LEOs harassing gun owners within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs I will stand by my statement on manufactured , note that i did not ascribe any motive or intent to ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    I will stand by my statement on manufactured , note that i did not ascribe any motive or intent to the behavure , tho i of course have opinions lol .
    Just what did the le officers or other citizens mis represent ? There were in fact folks there in a group carrying firearms . This does imho bear checking out . I am not excusing the attitude and corrispondance of the officers involved , but nor am i excusing the idiots who went whining to vcdl because they were contacted by le and then thrown out of the restraunt by the owner .
    Hell i would have threw them out too for creating a disturbance that affects my customers and repeat business , and no one is more pro 2nd than i am .
    Everyone on site here acted like idiots , but no one was arrested , detained , or even imho harassed, the contact by le was a legitamate call .
    We as ccw holders are and should be held to a higher standard , if not legaly at least by peer pressure . If as a group the folks involved cannot come up with a plan to eat a meal without scareing the other folks in the restraunt i truely question thier ability to formulate a plan to effectively use the handguns they carry .
    As i stated , the only ones so far i see being reasonable is the LE administration and possibly vcdl for attempting to get to the facts of the issue .
    All the indignent crys of " its legal " in the world will not change the fact that its neither common , nor smart to go as a group with pistols hanging out , into almost any public venue . Police will be called , and likely the officer assigned to the call will be on par with the idiots seen here , many are .
    A uniform is no sign of intelligance , ethics , honor or common sense ( tho we like to think it is and it really shoud be ). I could easily see this situation going south to the point folks went to jail on a catch all " contempt of cop " charge such as disorderly conduct . This did not happen in this instance .
    I hold both sides equaly responsible , and it saddens me since i would like for us as a group to rise to the standards of common sense and responsibility that a ccw implys .
    Being out of VA you may be a bit out of touch with current VA issues, but frankly...open carry IS common in VA these days and not just in places that serve alcohol. Through the work of VCDL, the guys at Opencarry.org and a whole other host of Virginians, we get most open carry issues and concealed carry issues resolved. I know of some of the folks involved, although I was not specifically involved myself on this one. Of the guys I believe were there, they are of the caliber that If they say they tried to keep things calm and civil, it's gospel as far as I'm concerned. Also typically Tony's hasn't been a place we've had problems before.

    As far as the comment about the indignant cries of "it's legal", we usually follow up with our "indignant cries" and hold our public officials to the letter and intent of the law, which is why Virginia remains one of the most free states in the Union. Although technically we're not a state, but a Commonwealth.

    Typically how I carry depends on what I'm wearing and if I'm going to be eating in a place that serves alcohol(because open carry is a REQUIREMENT there). I've open carried in just about every restaurant in NoVA and haven't had many if any even double takes from other patrons. Matter of fact the only times someone has brought "guns" up while I've opencarried here, it has actually sparked a number of good conversations with sheeple leading to them changing their sheep routines and some even taking NRA courses and starting out learning proper gun safety so they could start carrying themselves.
    -this message brought to you by VA @$$clown #202314 -changing VA one at a time


  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
    Certainly the "assclowns" comment ought to get someone fired.

    Was the assclown comment made face to face or just in the email?
    I know that the email is subject to public view, but really who cares if the officer says someone is an assclown in an email...
    Granted it nots a professional way to act, but in any other job setting no one would be getting fired for that.

    I still stand by my original take on this... both sides are assclowns.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Also, Redneck Repairs I didn't intend any offense. Re-reading my post it may appear to be slightly beligerant? At any rate, anyone who can agree to disagree in a civil manner as you already have stated...has my respect. Besides...between you and everyone else on this board...I still have a lot to learn from.

  4. #49
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    the issue with these comments in email and the other messages is that it also reflects the attitudes they have in person. We have a right to be upset with their actions. Included with the info originally sent with this is a copy of the 911 call.

    In it you hear the dispatcher repeated reassure the caller that they are legal. There are messages during the incident that show the officers know it is legal.

    While not a part of this incident, I am a member of OCDO and VCDL. This was a monthly fellowship dinner organized by OCDO. I also work in Manassas where this happened. It is not uncommon to see people open carrying a weapon in the restaurant in question. I also don't make a point of walking up to anyone in plain clothes and saying "hey, you a cop?". I guess at the next one everyone will be wearing hats with the Fraternal Order of Police logos....

    I second the remark about our firearm climate in VA. I also Open Carry quite frequently. I will most likely do more this summer. It is a great educational tool. I have not had any "freak out" reactions while open carrying. I have not YET had the police called to corner me.

    To make sweet candy, you gotta stir the pot. Ocasionally things go wrong, but because no one was breaking any laws, everyone went home! Many of our laws have been changed by civil disobedience.

    To some that is just what Open Carry is. You do not suffer the same restrictions that you have with a permit. You do not have to worry about the local paper printing your name and address (see frelance star). You just have to be prepared to shop elsewhere when asked to leave. You get to increase awareness of lawful practices and also desencitise the masses. Open carry has it's place, it just takes a dedicated individual to step up!!

    That said, most open carriers I have talked to either have or are waiting on their CHP. There are times and places however when discression might be the best choice.

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Was the assclown comment made face to face or just in the email?
    I know that the email is subject to public view, but really who cares if the officer says someone is an assclown in an email...
    Granted it nots a professional way to act, but in any other job setting no one would be getting fired for that.

    I still stand by my original take on this... both sides are assclowns.
    It's good to know that adhering to the law makes you an assclown.

    Besides the fact that it's a private e-mail available to the public via FOIA, his tone was completely wrong. Making all sorts of assumptions and immediately attacking the character of these guys. I don't know that guy from Adam, but I sure as heck wouldn't want him as a police officer in Lexington with that attitude. Even if the issue wasn't about guns, he was harassing someone over something legal because he had a "personal" issue with it.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    My take is rather simple; add two groups of assclowns together, and you got one big group of assclowns. One herd of assclowns can stir up a big dust storm.
    I don't think that is "dust" in the storm!
    There are 10 types of people in the world:
    Those who understand binary, and those that don't.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by SammyIamToday View Post
    It's good to know that adhering to the law makes you an assclown.
    Well, yeah, in this case it does. Heres why I say this... Our fight is not in the street or the courts; itís in the court of public opinion. These guys did nothing but make a spectacle out of them by doing this. It is out of the ordinary to open carry in most places, and they had to expect some sort of a reaction. Was it illegal for them to do what they did? No, I guess not.
    Would you expect them to be asked to leave if they went in wearing only their underwear? Its legal, no law was broken... In the court of public opinion that day, these guys lost.
    I like what these guys were trying to do, but they just went about it in the wrong way.
    I will not defend the LEO's actions after the fact, but because of an email with childish name calling was sent out, I donít think someone should loose their job.
    We also need to understand that we only have part of the story. We all know that there is three sides to every story, and we donít even have a complete version of one of those sides.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I still stand by my original take on this... both sides are assclowns.
    So to open carry instead of disarming makes you an assclown?
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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  9. #54
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    In this type of establishment, OC is our only option. I intend to be legal at all times, regardless of what the immediate "puplic opinion" might be. These are the laws, created by our elected officials, that is the true "public opinion". I am not a OC type guy, I perferre to keep my buisness private, however, I will now join OCDO, something I should have done a long time ago..
    "Sic Semper Tyrannis"

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Well, yeah, in this case it does. Heres why I say this... Our fight is not in the street or the courts; it’s in the court of public opinion. These guys did nothing but make a spectacle out of them by doing this. It is out of the ordinary to open carry in most places, and they had to expect some sort of a reaction. Was it illegal for them to do what they did? No, I guess not.
    There's no guessing to it. It wasn't illegal. Breaking the law is like being pregnant. You either are or you aren't. As far as our fight being for public opinion, that's irrelevant. Why would you ask another individual to disarm himself and to potentially risk his personal safety for some sheep's irrational emotional response to a sighting of OC? The only way people are ever going to be used to carried firearms by private citizens again (I say again because it was like that before) will be if they see it and get over it. We shouldn't have to hide like criminals because people are irrational and kudos for them having the intestinal fortitude to do so. Concealment should be for tactical reasons.


    Would you expect them to be asked to leave if they went in wearing only their underwear? Its legal, no law was broken... In the court of public opinion that day, these guys lost.
    I like what these guys were trying to do, but they just went about it in the wrong way.
    I will not defend the LEO's actions after the fact, but because of an email with childish name calling was sent out, I don’t think someone should loose their job.
    We also need to understand that we only have part of the story. We all know that there is three sides to every story, and we don’t even have a complete version of one of those sides.
    No, the officer should lose his job because he took a personal opinion out against a group of men following the law. The police uniform isn't designed for him to make up his own personal legislation and enforce it. If he can't get something so simple down, he doesn't need to be running around "enforcing" our laws.

    Of course the owner of the restaurant has the right to refuse service to anyone in their underwear or carrying a firearm. However, it was only a big deal after several officer's showed up and made it a big deal.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  11. #56
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    Heres why I say this... Our fight is not in the street or the courts; it’s in the court of public opinion. These guys did nothing but make a spectacle out of them by doing this. It is out of the ordinary to open carry in most places, and they had to expect some sort of a reaction. Was it illegal for them to do what they did? No, I guess not.
    I disagree.

    If everyone abided by the court of "public opinion" not a single state would have open or concealed carry laws...and it wasnt that long ago that most of these laws were even enacted.

    Just because it may be out of the ordinary, to carry openly in a resturaunt that serves alcohol, does not mean that anyone made a "spectacle "of themselves. I'd be willing to bet that the LAST thing anyone here wanted was to be hasseled by the cops. I'd be willing to bet that they just wanted to enjoy a nice quite evening visiting with each other and enjoying their meal.

    On the other hand, because they knew the law and asserted it, they are being perceived as trouble makers.

    Fact of the matter is this...

    These guys were within the law, and that is what matters. That law does appear to be a silly law....and however one may percieve it, it is still the law. To change a law is never an easy thing, and often times it simply will not happen until an event of this nature takes place, an example for others to see so that the lack of common sense here is apparent for those that can see to see it.

    It is possible, that this event, or even a few more like it, could be the first step to change this law. It appears that because the people involved knew the law and used it to their advantage, that the cops that were less familiar with the law may have been somewhat intimidated by these guys. Having been is some situations where a citizen began quoting the law to cops, I can guarantee you that it will make some cops very,very uncomfortable...ecspecially if you are less than 100 % on it and escpecially when it deals with guns.

    Does that mean the because a citizen can quote the letter of the law to a cop than cant, show that he is an "assclown"?. According to your statements it does. I wish that you would reconsider your postition here and think about it a bit more.

    I think that its just a matter of time before some state legislator takes it upon themself to introduce language that clears this up by amending the law. It usually takes some time to check and adjust and fine tune a law and get the kinks worked out of it. When and if that happens, we'll all look back at this scenario and wonder about the impact it had on making the law a better law, and one that used more common sense than the current law does. That would do three things. It would keep the sheeple that are scared of guns happy,it would keep the cops happy and it would give us less to discuss on pulbic forums...

    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    If everyone abided by the court of "public opinion" not a single state would have open or concealed carry laws.
    That's just ludicrous. Legislators are not in the practice of enacting legislation that's unpopular. Those laws have been passed because there is popular support.

    In Texas, for example, it was her opposition to a concealed handgun law which substantially contributed to erosion of support for a popular governor, Ann Richards, ultimately leading to her defeat. One of the survivors of the Luby's massacre (Oct, 1991) in Killeen, Texas, Dr. Susanna Gratia Hupp, was elected to the Texas legislature and spearheaded the passage of our current law. It appears there's also popular support for the proposed castle doctine law.

    Positive public opinion leads to support amongst lawmakers and victories in referenda. Responsible behavior and clear, rational arguments are much more productive in preserving 2nd Amendment rights than confrontation and shrill declarations.
    Cheers,
    Rod
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  13. #58
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    You miss my point rod13...

    Popular opinoin for many years was that carry of concealed weapons would be the bane of society. The news media determines what "popular opinoin" is. Its the clear thinking folks that dont necessarily go with it. Its the ones that go against popular opinoin that gets things changes many times. Susanna Gratia Hupp sustained a major uphill battle to get things in Texas changed and much of what she originally did went against "popular opinoin" at the time.

    It appears there's also popular support for the proposed castle doctine law.
    Yeah we had that here in Arkansas too. Most polls were around 80 percent in favor of. It still wasnt enough to get it killed yesterday by 9 of our highly esteemed lawmakers that know whats best for everyone.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  14. #59
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    Oh boy, I stirred it up... again. Thanks Rodc13 for reading and taking the time to understand what I'm saying.
    First, I agree they should not have to disarm, as they were following the law. All I'm saying is, these guys did this to make a stand against a goofy law. Thatís OK too, but they just went about it in the wrong way. They did it making a scene.
    They were ďhassledĒ by the cops because the cops were called there. The owner of the restaurant decided he did not want them there armed. Thatís the owners choice. He has the right to refuse.
    In this case, another patron called the police... the police are REQUIRED to go and investigate. Could you imagine what would happen if they started ignoring "man with a gun" calls? As stated in the PDF documents, no law was enforced! They were left alone after the incident was resolved, NO ARREST, NO CITATION, nothing! If the police wanted to charge them and "hassle" them, they could have charged them with something. There is always some law to charge with if thatís the goal. They were simply asked to leave at the request of the owner. No ones agenda except the VA defense leagues was pushed on anybody!
    Again, I won't/ can't defend the officers MDC and email traffic, it was clearly unprofessional.
    I think Capt. Taylor summed it up perfect on pg. 26 of the PDF.
    Both sides had faults in this, no doubt about it
    "Just blame Sixto"

  15. #60
    Member Array denverd0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO
    Granted it nots a professional way to act, but in any other job setting no one would be getting fired for that.
    Yes, someone would. In all of the professional situations that I'm aware of, professionals are expected to behave in a professional fashion. If they don't they stand to be fired. In fact, I have fired people for being unprofessional.

    If I were their boss I would have responded immediately to that e-mail, telling them that we do NOT talk about law-abiding citizens--that we are sworn to protect and serve--in that kind of way! If the boss did not do this, and I were the boss's boss, I would reprimand him and tell him that he was going to find himself walking a beat if this sort of thing happened again. If I were the mayor of that town, and no one on the police force saw anything wrong with this comment, and it finally came out in public (as this did), I would be asking for the police chief's resignation.

    Professional means professional, and if a professional cannot act in a professional manner then he needs to find a different profession! The "assclown" comment was absolutely NOT professional!

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