LEOs harassing gun owners - Page 7

LEOs harassing gun owners

This is a discussion on LEOs harassing gun owners within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by rocky The CCW folks stopped made their choice to open carry in the restaurant. More than likely they at least half expected ...

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  1. #91
    Member Array woodstock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    The CCW folks stopped made their choice to open carry in the restaurant. More than likely they at least half expected a problem.
    Open vs concealed is a ongoing debate, with no "right " answer. We all need to make our own choices in carry, as well as what legal battles we are willing to take on. .
    I haven't looked at the laws for Michigan, but our ONLY choice in Virginia is open carry in the restaurant or DON'T CARRY AT ALL. Not carrying is an unacceptable option for me. There is a third choice I guess - only go to fast food places. Ugh!

    I've eaten in the restaurant where this happened, and their other venue across town, many times and have never been approached or questioned by staff or customers. I've open carried in all kinds of establishments from Culpeper county to Fairfax and never been asked to leave. I was asked once by a manager at Ruby Tuesday to cover my gun, actually he just pointed out it was "exposed." I explained the law and he was alright with that. I was told once by a server that I "couldn't have that in here" and again, I explained the law and not another word. I've been back to both places many times without incident.

    I prefer to conceal, but I also have to follow the law... so until we get it changed people will see me open carrying where I have to.

    Rick
    The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.

    George Washington


  2. #92
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Let us not miss the lesson here guys, even if it's legal to open carry, that doesn't protect us from disturbing the peace and other issues that can result.
    The disturbance came from third parties (other diners, in this case) having a problem with it ... not with the people exercising their legal right to carry. Big, big difference. They were obviously not acting as criminals. To any LEO who knew the applicable laws (including those related to harassment and illegal arrest), the only lesson here is: even LEO's can get it wrong, on occasion.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  3. #93
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    AGAIN, IT IS ILLEGAL TO CONCEAL CARRY IN VIRGINIA IN A RESTAURANT THAT SERVES ALCOHOL. OPEN CARRY IS REQUIRED!

    People have open carried in this establishment in the past WITHOUT INCIDENT. This time they were asked to leave AFTER the LEOs coerced the manager into asking them to leave.

    The person who should have been asked to leave was the original boob who didn't like it!

    I hate having to open carry, but I do so in the same way these men did!
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

  4. #94
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goawayfarm View Post
    AGAIN, IT IS ILLEGAL TO CONCEAL CARRY IN VIRGINIA IN A RESTAURANT THAT SERVES ALCOHOL. OPEN CARRY IS REQUIRED!

    People have open carried in this establishment in the past WITHOUT INCIDENT. This time they were asked to leave AFTER the LEOs coerced the manager into asking them to leave.

    The person who should have been asked to leave was the original boob who didn't like it!

    I hate having to open carry, but I do so in the same way these men did!
    Yeah, I'm one of the ones who has carried in there in the past without incident. Until we get this goofy rule changed though we're all stuck with it. Open carry, conceal carry and break the law, or don't eat out except for fast food. Those are our only options.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  5. #95
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goawayfarm View Post
    AGAIN, IT IS ILLEGAL TO CONCEAL CARRY IN VIRGINIA IN A RESTAURANT THAT SERVES ALCOHOL. OPEN CARRY IS REQUIRED!
    Think you got anyones attention?
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  6. #96
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    I don't live in Virginia, so maybe I don't have a dog in this fight.

    But it seems pretty clear to me. The gun guys were following the law, pure and simple.

    The LEO's were out of line, period.
    "...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."


    Gary D. Mitchell, A Sniper's Journey: The Truth About the Man and the Rifle, P. 103, NAL Caliber books, 2006, 1st Ed.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG View Post
    Think you got anyones attention?
    After reading some of the posts, it looks like some people didn't get...

    IT IS ILLEGAL TO CONCEAL CARRY IN VIRGINIA WHERE ALCOHOL IS SERVED, YOU MUST OPEN CARRY.

    SO, I REPEATED MYSELF SEVERAL TIMES!
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

  8. #98
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    I got it... did you get my post? I think I am done in this thread, it gives me a headache.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  9. #99
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Nevermind.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  10. #100
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    LOL


    Now this thread is getting interesting again.

    I think a lot of you are missing the boat on this though... It doesn’t matter if it’s legal to do so or not. They were not arrested, cited or otherwise by the police. The manager made a business decision to have the men leave; he can do that. His right to run his business as he sees fit trumps the men’s right to carry in that business.
    I think the lawsuit is over how the officers handled the call, not if it was legal or not. It is obvious they knew it was legal; otherwise arrests would have been made.
    I totally agree with that, private property is private property. However the FOIA information leads you to believe that the police coerced the owner into ejecting them because they had a problem with them following the law. That's where I think it's potentially lawsuit worthy.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  11. #101
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Update

    VCDL UPDATE:

    The Manassas event on Monday has really a hot topic in the gun
    cyberspace. I believe that Gun Week is going to do a story on it as
    well.

    Lots of positive and grateful emails flowing in.

    Mark Anderson sent this:

    "Philip,

    As one of the 'hyper-aware, overcompensating ass-clowns' who was
    ejected
    from Tony's and run out of town on the night of January 13, WOW can
    hardly
    begin to explain how I feel about the turnout last night. I wish there
    were
    some way I could express my thanks personally to all of the VCDL
    members who
    came and stayed late to make their comments known, and to those who
    have
    filed formal complaints, and to others who have expressed support in
    other
    ways. This is truly a humbling experience for me and I know for others
    of
    the Tony's 7.

    ...I don't think the behavior of the Manassas police will be swept
    under the
    rug after this kind of showing.

    Well done VCDL!

    Mark Anderson"

    There was one not so nice phone call from a drunk in NoVA that
    screamed at the top of his lungs that I didn't understand the
    Constitution. Lots of flowery language. He hung up before I could
    even ask him to explain the Constitution to me so I would be better
    versed in the future. :-(

    Dennis O'Connor couldn't help but quip at the press when they go a
    little crazy in their prose whenever gun owners are involved:

    "And in a scene reminiscent of the OK Corral, several reporters
    swaggered in packing cameras. You expect to hear "Need a tintype,
    pardner?" as they assumed an aggressive stance at the edge of the
    crowded room. These first amendment zealots never miss an
    opportunity to flaunt their so-called "rights," just like the
    in-your-face camera-toting newspapermen of the old west."

    One of our EMs did say that he thought I was going to easy on the
    Chief of Police, Skinner. He said that even with an on going
    investigation, the police can still tell you who is being
    investigated and their current status (on paid/unpaid leave, working
    behind a desk, etc.)

    *****Stories*****

    Here is the link to NBC, Channel 4's coverage with video:

    http://www.nbc4.com/news/11122593/de...=headlineclick

    Gun Rights Activists Fight City Of Manassas
    Police Conduct Internal Investigation

    CITY OF MANASSAS, Va. -- A group in Virginia had a run-in with police
    when they went to a pizza parlor in the City of Manassas with guns on
    their sides.

    The incident happened Jan. 18 at Tony's New York Pizza. Seven members
    of a group called opencarry.org met at the restaurant for dinner and
    to talk about their support for gun rights. Each man was armed, and
    although they had permits to carry a concealed weapon, they displayed
    their guns openly on their hips.

    Virginia law requires them to do that in a place that serves alcohol.

    Co-owner Joe D'Agostino, who was working that night told NBC4 some
    officers walked in and said some customers had complained.

    "The officers came in and they told us they had received a call
    saying there were these armed men," D'Agostino said. "I'm not exactly
    sure from whom. They told us at that point we were the business
    owners and it was our choice whether we wanted the men to stay or if
    we wanted them to leave."

    More than 100 gun-rights supporters packed the Manassas City Council
    chambers Monday night. They complained that the Manassas City police
    harassed the seven Tony's Pizza diners.

    Philip Van Cleave of the Virginia Citizens Defense League said, "And
    the problem we have here is, we have police who went up to a
    restaurant owner, knowing they had nothing on the people sitting
    there and coerced them into getting them to leave."

    D'Agostino said he supports everyone's rights until it interferes
    with his right to run a business.

    "Do you need a gun to come here to Tony's, I don't think so," he said.

    An internal police investigation is under way, NBC4 reported. It
    includes text message type e-mails that the officers allegedly sent
    between themselves that night, referring to the gun owners in some
    very derogatory terms.

    --

    More Potomac News coverage:

    http://tinyurl.com/2842m2

    Complaint filed against city police officers
    By ELISA A. GLUSHEFSKI
    eglushefski@potomacnews.com
    Wednesday, February 21, 2007

    A Springfield man filed a complaint Friday against the Manassas
    Police Department, saying that an officer's ignorance of Virginia's
    open-carry weapons laws created an unnecessary and tense situation
    for him and six friends at a city pizza restaurant.

    On Jan. 13, Russ Troxel said he and six other members of a Second
    Amendment rights Web site forum Opencarry.org met at Tony's New York
    Pizza for dinner.

    According to Troxel, they walked in with their guns holstered at
    their sides and ordered their food.

    Virginia is known as an open-carry state. While carrying a concealed
    weapon requires a court-issued permit, no permit is required to carry
    a gun in the open.

    Around 8:11 p.m., a police officer responded to a call at the
    restaurant from an unnamed diner who reported that the men were not
    causing any trouble but their weapons made him uncomfortable.

    Troxel said the man had approached two of his friends while they were
    ordering their food and called them "yahoos" and "dorks."

    About 30 minutes later a Manassas police officer arrived and, Troxel
    said, "loudly and antagonistically" asked if the men were police
    officers and, after learning that none were, demanded to see their
    IDs.

    Within nine minutes, six other officers came to the Mathis Avenue
    restaurant, according to the Manassas police department's call
    information log.

    The men tried to explain that because Tony's serves alcohol they were
    required by law to openly carry their firearms, Troxel said, but the
    first responding officer refused to listen and eventually became
    hostile.

    One of the officers helped to defuse the situation, Troxel said in a
    telephone interview Tuesday, but several others overstepped their
    authority and were unnecessarily rude in doing so.

    "The actions and attitudes [of the officers] is intolerable in a free
    nation," Russ Troxel said in the complaint.

    Police Chief John J. Skinner said he would like to comment publicly
    but can't because the complaint is part of an internal investigation.
    He would not release the names of the officers.

    According to the department's call information log, obtained through
    a Freedom of Information Act request, Officer Chad Hyland was the
    first to respond, followed by Officers Joshua Thompson, Rickey
    Clodfelter, Sean Ellis, Marc Hittle, Tina Pannell and Carrie Sutton.

    Troxel also accuses police of "suggesting or implying" something to
    the owner of Tony's to get him to ask Troxel and his friends to
    leave. The men hadn't been confronted about the weapons by any of the
    restaurant staff in the 45 minutes that they had been sitting there
    until after police arrived, he said.

    Joe D'Agostino, manager of Tony's, said that the restaurant does not
    have a policy on openly carrying weapons.

    But because they had received several complaints from regular
    customers, he and the owner told the men they would have to put their
    guns in their vehicles or leave, D'Agostino said.

    Officers used derogatory terms to describe the men and their group in
    several e-mails and messages sent within the department following the
    incident, according to documents obtained through a Freedom of
    Information Act request by Mike Stollenwerk, one of the founders of
    Open carry.org.

    Stollenwerk was not at the restaurant at the time of the incident.

    In an e-mail Clodfelter sent five of the other officers the day after
    the incident, he copied the state code that prohibits patrons from
    carrying concealed weapons in any place that serves alcohol and
    concludes that they were legally allowed to carry their guns openly
    that night.

    In the same e-mail, Clodfelter also wrote: "My guess is the
    over-compensating ass clowns at Tony's were hyper-aware of all this,
    and that's why they started crying like little babies when their
    event got spoiled by the whole 'lets get the owner to tell them to
    get the f-- out' thing."

    A lieutenant in the department e-mailed other police departments in
    the state on Jan. 17 asking if similar incidents had happened in
    their jurisdictions, adding that his opinion "is that the group is
    probing local [police departments] in order to see how they will
    react" to those type of calls.

    An hour later a captain of the Fredericksburg Police Department
    replied that a group of men had "attempted the same type of act" in
    the Fredericksburg area and that they were "lawsuit shopping."

    Troxel said the group chose Tony's restaurant for its central location.

    "We weren't lawsuit shopping," he said, adding that he also denies
    that the group was testing the department's knowledge of open-carry
    laws.

    Use of vulgar or profane language is a violation of the department's
    computer and electronic messaging policy, Skinner said.

    He began a supervisory review of the incident in early February after
    receiving the Freedom of Information Act request two weeks earlier.
    He said it could take up to 30 days to get the findings of the
    department's internal investigation.

    ***** Videos and pictures *****

    As promised, here are some video of 6 of the many speakers. The
    first video has me, Dennis O'Connor, and Jim Snyder. On the second
    video there are three of the people who were harassed at Tony's -
    Andrew Amarine, Michael Landstreet (listen to this guy's resume!),
    and Mark Anderson:

    http://www.vcdl.org/Tonys/VCDL_Manassas.wmv
    http://www.vcdl.org/Tonys/tonys3of7.wmv

    Ian Branson posted pictures of all the speakers that night. He has a
    superb picture of all the gun owners raising their hand to show
    support for VCDL's position:

    http://tinyurl.com/2gmqy5

    There will more photos posted to the VCDL site soon.

    ************************************************** *************************
    VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    (VCDL).
    VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization
    dedicated to
    defending the human rights of all Virginians. The membership considers
    the
    Right to Keep and Bear Arms to be an essential human right.

    VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  12. #102
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Unprofessional Police officers

    The cure for this situation is to have concealed carry in this type of business. If the customer who complained had minded his own business this would have never happened. The officers who responded were very unprofessional except for the one officer who tried to defuse the situation. We don't have this type of problem here due to the fact that our gun laws are common sense laws. The officers acted more like a lynch mob except for one who kept his head and tryed to defuse the situation.

  13. #103
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    Unhappy Sherrifs e mail address

    Can someone from virginia please post the e mail address of the Manassas Sherrifs Office. I think it's time to let Mr. Skinner know how we feel abour his unprofessional officers. This is a disgrace that a LEO would act in this manner and use vulger language when talking to the people they are supposed to be protecting and serving. If you can post any other addresses where an e mail might be appropriate please do so. I have the upmost respect for LEOs who give their all to protect the public that they serve.


    Thanks Tom

  14. #104
    Member Array woodstock's Avatar
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    How to let Manassas PD know your feelings

    This link is to an on-line survey conducted by the Manassas Police Department. I filled it out and since someone asked for an e-mail address this is an opportunity to fill their inbox with replies.

    http://www.manassascity.org/forms.as...safetyform.asp

    The city's main web site is: www.manassascity.org

    Phone numbers:
    Mayor and City Council 703-257-8213
    Police 703-257-8000

    I've eaten at Tony's many times, don't know if I will again after his manager's interview with the D.C. channel 4 (NBC) reporter. He said they had no policy about being armed and also said they had complaints from several "regular" customers. But it wasn't until the police spoke to them during the "incident" that it became a problem for the staff. That doesn't sit well, or ring true, with me.

    I plan to write them a letter about it. I couldn't find a web site for them, but the address is:

    Tony's New York Pizza
    9108 Mathis Ave
    Manassas, VA 20110
    (703) 330-8909

    Rick
    The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.

    George Washington

  15. #105
    Distinguished Member Array p8riot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G View Post
    The cure for this situation is to have concealed carry in this type of business. If the customer who complained had minded his own business this would have never happened. The officers who responded were very unprofessional except for the one officer who tried to defuse the situation. We don't have this type of problem here due to the fact that our gun laws are common sense laws. The officers acted more like a lynch mob except for one who kept his head and tryed to defuse the situation.
    We've been trying to fix this stupid law for years.
    "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

    The second amendment is the reset button of our Constitution.

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