LEOs harassing gun owners

[paramedic70002]

http://www.vcdl.org/Tonys/MCPD_FOIA_Response.pdf

Now I'm not digging into LEOs in general, but this is way out there, especially in good ole VA. Click the link to read the results of the FOIA request. You will be amazed. You will be sickened. You will be pissed.

The story, which I got from an email about the incident: Seven citizens with CCWs went into a restaurant to eat. The restaurant serves alcohol, so the 7 complied with VA law and open carried. No alcohol consumed. No laws broken. A patron of the restaurant didn't like it, argued with the men and wasn't interrested in hearing about the law, so after finishing his meal and leaving, he called 911 and reported them. The dispatcher tried to tell the caller that they were legal, but insisted they be investigated. One LEO was sent, but every other LEO in the city assigned themselves to the call. LEOs were rude to out valiant citizens, demanding ID which they are not required to furnish, suggesting they leave, refusing to look at documents pertaining to the legality of their actions which one had in his vehicle, then had the owner of the restaurant tell them to leave, which they did.

As you read the transcript of the FOIA, you will see an LEO refer to them repeatedly as assclowns. You will see them being accused of lawsuit shopping. You will see them being denigrated for exerting their rights.

If you would like to express your displeasure to the powers that be of the city of Manassas, here is their contact info:

Chief John Skinner: jskinner@ci.manassas.va.us

Manassas city government comment form: http://www.manassascity.org/forms.as...edbackform.asp

City Manager Lawrence Hughes: citymanager@ci.manassas.va.us

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[MattInFla]

Wow. I looked at the mission statement of the Manassas Police Department:

The Manassas City Police Department commits its resources in partnership with the community, to; promote public safety and maintain public order by eliminating crime and the fear of crime; practice the values of integrity, respect, public service and professional standing; and to maintain a proactive relationship with the community, and a positive working environment for Department members.

And I am having a hard time finding the section on calling law abiding citizens "assclowns".

One wonders - if this is the kind of contempt this particular officer (and apparently his superiors as his comments went unchallenged in the email exchange) have for the citizens, what kind of service can one expect from them?

I mean, how important can an "asssclown's" problems be?

Matt

[Miggy]

I have to disagree with both sides on this one. Yes, by law it seems you can open-carry but was it the smart thing to do? As many advances as we had these past couple of decades reagrding carrying a weapon, John Q. Public is not yet ready to accept open carry without getting nervous. Hell, if I see a bunch of guys that do not look like LEOs coming into a restaurant I am in, I'd be doing a quick check of my gun while keeping track of their movements. Secondly, Why advertise? From a tactical standpoint I'd be giving away the element of surprise.
As for the responding officers' emails, let us remember that while we have a fair number of LEOs in our board and a fair number of them not in our board that side with us in the issue of the 2A, there is bound to be a number of LEOs that would hate to live and serve among self-sufficient civilians that can take care of themselves.

I am re-reading the whole thing. First thing that strikes me is that Mr. Clodfelter was not aware that "company" emails can be retrieved and presented. I am guessing that the rules about language used in emails in his department is kind of lax. I know I would be in deep waste matter if I used that kind of language with my work email!

[briansmech]

wow...

and they fired 5 officers in my neck of the wood for watching DVDs on downtime in their cruisers.... i can't imagine what they should do to these guys.

calling citizens "overcompensating" referring i can only assume to their manhood.... and "crying like babies" and all the clown and fornication references...

and this was interdepartmental email of the PD?? how professional...

verryyyy long read, btw

[sojourner]

"assclowns" appeared to be qoutes from the officers in the message transcripts.

[sojourner]

Miggy - I believe that if they could conceal in an establishment that serves alcohol, they would have / should have. In PA, I don't have to deal with that silly law. I can conceal inside an establishment that serves alcohol. The vast majority of eating establishments serve some sort of alcohol.

I do not know what purpose the law serves by disallowing concealed carry but not disallowing open carry in a bar. Hopefully the law will change.

[ccw9mm]

Yes, by law it seems you can open-carry but ...

I believe it isn't a case of "may". Rather, it's a case of "must". In a place the State denies the right of conealed carry , then in that State open carry is allowed. Hence, this group openly carried. Better than than disarmed. If we've got all of the relevant facts, it would seem the LEO's were wrong.

BTW, claims of "lawsuit shopping" are misplaced. Either LEO's are supporting the laws, or they're not. If not, they should be forced to enforce them as intended/written, not as interpreted on a given day of the week. No matter the tactic to demand it; no matter the tactic to catch them in the act of failing to enforce the laws correctly. Embarrassing though it might be, deflecting "blame" for such incidents on lawfully-carrying citizens is dishonorable and wrong.

[MattInFla]

Here's what I sent them:

Dear Chief Skinner and City Manager Hughes:

As a former resident of the DC Metro area, I occasionally like to catch up on events in my old hometown. I recently heard about an incident involving citizens openly carrying handguns in a restaurant in Manassas. Personally, I am not an advocate of open of firearms, and I am not writing to rant about the right to bear arms. The purpose of my correspondence is to express my, for lack of a better word, shock at the conduct of some of the officers involved. I am referring specifically to the electronic correspondence between several police officers and other city employees contained in the material released to the VCDL as the result of a FOIA request.

Among other places, you can find the materials in question here: http://www.vcdl.org/Tonys/MCPD_FOIA_Response.pdf

If you would direct your attention to the two electronic mail messages contained on pages 11 and 12 of that document, exchanged between Rickey Clodfelter, Tina Pannell, Joshua D. Thompson, Marc D. Hittle, Chad Hyland, and Carrie Sutton. In particular, please notice the following paragraph:

"My guess is the over-compensating assclowns at Tony's were hyper-aware of all this, and that's why they started crying like little babies when their event got spoiled by the whole 'let's get the owner to tell them to get the **** out' thing. Speaking of these assclowns, you can see their website here: http:www.vcdl.org/static/ccw.html (I recognized the logo from one of the assclown's hats) Virginia Citizens Defense League (or Assclowns) They are the same ones from Fairfax I was mentioning, and it looks like they like to post up a boycott list of all the places that kick them out: http:www.vcdl.org/static/gue.html

This is just what I pulled right from the code, and I did not bother to look up any case law to is, because I just cannot imagine any bar owner that wouldn't want assclowns with guns kicked out. Sorry for being so long-winded."

From the way the emails are presented in that document, it appears that the quote above was written by either Officer Clodfelter or Officer Pannell. It is rather dismaying to note, however, that there is not a single word anywhere in any subsequent communication taking issue with a sworn officer referring to law abiding citizens as "assclowns" by any of the recipients of that missive. Even though the email was deemed offensive and blocked by the city's "banned content" filter.

As I said before, I am not writing to rant about the right to bear arms. That is not truly at issue here - as Officer Clodfelter's prior email and the car-to-car messages not, what the 6 citizens in the restaurant were doing was completely legal.

What is, in my opinion, a VERY serious issue is the utter contempt being displayed by numerous city employees (as least two of whom are sworn law enforcement officers) toward both the citizens of the Commonwealth and the law. It truly makes one wonder - what kind of service can an "assclown" expect when they need help from these officers?

The mission statement of the Manassas City Police Department states that the Department "commits its resources in partnership with the community, to; promote public safety and maintain public order by eliminating crime and the fear of crime; practice the values of integrity, respect, public service and professional standing; and to maintain a proactive relationship with the community, and a positive working environment for Department members."

Judging by the correspondence in question, it appears that the values of integrity, respect, public service and professional standing don't apply to certain citizens, i.e. the "assclown" population.

I would be hard pressed to recommend a visit to your city for business or social purposes if this sort of conduct is tolerated among city employees. I would hope that the city takes immediate, visible steps to ensure that this sort of conduct does not occur in the future.

If the Department is truly committed to integrity and respect, a public apology from the officer who wrote the email in question to the "assclowns" would be warranted, along with some remedial training.

Sincerely,

Matthew Larson
Casselberry, Florida

It will be interesting to see what, if any, response is received.

Matt

[MattInFla]

I have to disagree with both sides on this one. Yes, by law it seems you can open-carry but was it the smart thing to do? As many advances as we had these past couple of decades reagrding carrying a weapon, John Q. Public is not yet ready to accept open carry without getting nervous. Hell, if I see a bunch of guys that do not look like LEOs coming into a restaurant I am in, I'd be doing a quick check of my gun while keeping track of their movements. Secondly, Why advertise? From a tactical standpoint I'd be giving away the element of surprise.

Personally, I agree with you on open carry. Even if Florida allowed it, I wouldn't do it.

As for the responding officers' emails, let us remember that while we have a fair number of LEOs in our board and a fair number of them not in our board that side with us in the issue of the 2A, there is bound to be a number of LEOs that would hate to live and serve among self-sufficient civilians that can take care of themselves.

I am re-reading the whole thing. First thing that strikes me is that Mr. Clodfelter was not aware that "company" emails can be retrieved and presented. I am guessing that the rules about language used in emails in his department is kind of lax. I know I would be in deep waste matter if I used that kind of language with my work email!

If he was unaware that his work emails were subject to FOIA, he's been living under a rock. There was a big public scandal over the Metropolitan Police in DC and the content of their car to car and other official emails.

I am not concerned with the language in and of itself. My concern is for the utter contempt of both the citizens and the laws of the Commonwealth of Virginia.

With all of the recipients of those emails, not one questioned the classification of law-abiding citizens as "assclowns".

You have to wonder - just what kind of service would an "assclown" get from these particular officers?

Matt

[SIGguy229]

Miggy---I hear what you are saying...but the VA law is clear--in VA, CHP (or CCW) holders are *prohibited by law* from carrying concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol. There have been very diligent efforts in getting this law overturned in the state assembly--but then the antis come back with "Guns in bars! They're evil! What about the children!?"

Also note in the e-mail where references to families and children in the restaurant were made...kind of disingenuous.

If the law allowed for concealed carry in restaurants--we would do it

[Redneck Repairs]

My take is that in life you will see a lot of arragent pricks that think they know it all . Some in this situation seem to be wearing a uniform and badge . The fact that they would commit to email or data terminal some of the things they did goes to show that they are not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
The agency administrative response seemed pretty approprate to me in that they recognised the possibility of a lawsuit over the behavure of thier officers . The dective from fairfax ( i belive ) even went so far as to reccomend remedial instruction of what the law says at roll call .
IMHO the inital call was grossly mis handled by BOTH sides . Reading between the lines the inital officer was spooked by armed citizens , out numbered , and became overly authoritative and agressive.
The ccw holders appairently did not do our side any favors either with thier confrentational attitude .
Remember folks Sheep only have two speeds , graze and stampeed . It is in our best intrest to see to it that around us at least they contently graze . Walking into a restraunt/bar en mass and open carrying while appairently legal is dammed shure not smart , and a police response is to be expected . Dont act all innocent and supprised when the confrentation YOU manufactured occurs.
The only ones i see acting remotely approprate here are the police administrators dealing with the sh*t storm from the incident .

[SammyIamToday]

I hope they sue them for harrassment. That's absolutely ridiculous. They were required by law to open carry in that situation and were basically harassed for following the law.

If someone does their job that badly, they don't need a job.

[ccw9mm]

The ccw holders appairently did not do our side any favors either with thier confrentational attitude . Dont act all innocent and supprised when the confrentation YOU manufactured occurs.

Reminds me a bit of the Dan Sayers (Ohio) indicent, last year, when responding LEOs were loudly and belligerently complained to, as the officers sought to gain control of and understand the situation. Bad time to get one's back up, whatever else may be true.

Though, claiming the situation was manufactured by citizens doing what the law allows is plainly too much. Whatever the intent of the folks, they were in fact legally carrying (according to the basic facts of this case). Impressions by sheep in the restaurant and the LEO's misrepresentations don't alter that.

[Tom G]

I just sent an e mail off to Cheif Skinner. I told him that his officer acted in a very unprofessional manner and his officer needed an education as to what the law says.

[USPnTX]

I just wish someone would explain to me the rationale behind not being able to carry concealed but being able to open carry. It doesn't make any sense to me. Of course, now that I think about it you might be much less likely to get into a bar room brawl with a guy that has a 1911 strapped to his hip.