Orlando Sentinel: Gun permits rise as some fight back against crime

Orlando Sentinel: Gun permits rise as some fight back against crime

This is a discussion on Orlando Sentinel: Gun permits rise as some fight back against crime within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; An interesting article in today's Orlando Sentinel: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...l_tab01_layout OrlandoSentinel.com Gun permits rise as some fight back against crime April Hunt Sentinel Staff Writer 9:14 AM ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array CharlieMike's Avatar
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    Orlando Sentinel: Gun permits rise as some fight back against crime

    An interesting article in today's Orlando Sentinel:

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...l_tab01_layout

    OrlandoSentinel.com
    Gun permits rise as some fight back against crime

    April Hunt

    Sentinel Staff Writer

    9:14 AM EDT, June 21, 2007

    Marc Thom drew his 9 mm pistol on two shotgun-wielding men who confronted him and a woman outside his MetroWest apartment early Sunday.

    One of the robbers ducked when Thom pointed his weapon, which allowed him and his friend to run to a business and call police.

    Thom, who has a concealed-weapons permit, is among a growing number of people in the Orlando area who are confronting rising violent crime by carrying guns.

    Nearly 20,000 people in Orange County are legally carrying concealed guns, records show. The number of licenses for concealed weapons in the county has jumped 20 percent in the past year and has risen 57 percent in the past five years.

    And more are on the way. The state Division of Licensing has sent out nearly a quarter-million applications for permits statewide this year, a 33 percent increase from five years ago.

    "Having a concealed-weapon permit for most people is peace of mind," said Larry Anderson, who manages the Shoot Straight gun shop and firing range in Apopka. "If someone is prepared for the worst-case scenario, they're better off.

    "We all have insurance for our cars for that same reason," he added.

    No permit is required to carry a weapon openly in the Sunshine State, though to carry a gun on your person requires a concealed-weapon license.

    As violent crime spiked across the nation, Florida in 1987 joined 34 other states in allowing residents who take a safety class and pass a background check to carry a hidden gun.

    'Wicked conundrum'

    Research shows that some form of resistance, including use of a weapon, does help thwart criminal attacks, said Lonn Lanza-Kaduce, who heads the criminology department at the University of Florida.

    But it also increases the risk of injury or death to the victim.

    "That's the wicked conundrum," Lanza-Kaduce said. "You can't have too many of these incidents before someone gets hurt."

    Cops agree. When victims resist, that's often when something happens, Orlando police Sgt. Barbara Jones said.

    At the same time, though, police understand that people want to defend themselves, Jones said.

    "Obviously, the public is concerned about crime and they have to do what they need to," Jones said. "It's just a reaction when this happens."

    Two days after Thom chased away the two armed men at MetroWest, Eaion Connor fought back another way.

    Connor didn't have a weapon when a gunman tried to carjack him as he left a 7-Eleven early Tuesday on the city's south side.

    So he reached for his assailant's .40-caliber handgun, which went off as he wrested it away. No one was hit, but the shot startled the gunman so much that he lost his slippers and hat as he ran off.

    "That's good news," said John Harvey, owner of the Oak Ridge Gun Range in Orlando. "If you're attacked and you don't fight back, you're going to be attacked more."

    Harvey said he sees 20 people in every permit class his range offers, double from a year ago.

    Anderson, manager of Shoot Straight, said his two weekly classes also have about 20 people in them, a definite and steady increase since the 2001 terrorist attacks.

    He was more guarded in lauding the men who fought back but also said he couldn't second-guess them.

    "I don't recommend just anybody doing that, but until you're in that situation, you never know what you'll do," Anderson said.

    Every attack is different.

    Dick Giles, taking target practice with his grandson Wednesday morning at the Shoot Straight range, can't afford the $118 for the concealed-weapon license he wants.

    A lifelong shooter, the Pine Hills man said he wants it to fight back if attacked when he is alone. He would give in only if his wife or 7-year-old grandson, Max Ortiz, were with him.

    "Most of the stuff going on out there are young kids who don't want to work for a buck," Giles said. "When someone actually fights back, they run off."

    Len Morris, shooting two lanes away in the range, took the opposite tack. He would defend his family but, alone, would give in.

    'Last resort'

    "Just because you have a weapon doesn't mean you're guaranteed of the outcome," the Orlando man said. "It's a last resort."

    Before firing into a tight black bull's-eye on his target 15 yards out, Morris explained his logic.

    "You have to avoid the confrontation, if possible," he said. "But with what appears to be an increase of crime in this area, it just seems prudent to be able to defend yourself."


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array Ghettokracker71's Avatar
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    Mixed opinions. More armed citizens? Good. More crimes? Bad. I think its funny the police voice their concern about armed citizens, personally? If the police was THAT concerned about the well-being of the people,they'd firgure out how to stop the rising crime.

    Personally? I'd never live in Florida anyway.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array Smith&Wessonfan's Avatar
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    'Wicked conundrum'

    Research shows that some form of resistance, including use of a weapon, does help thwart criminal attacks, said Lonn Lanza-Kaduce, who heads the criminology department at the University of Florida.

    But it also increases the risk of injury or death to the victim.
    I'll take my chances. Chances are that I will come out ahead.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    "But it also increases the risk of injury or death to the victim."
    Hm. I'd like to see some facts and figures from a legitimate independent study (or two, or three), in this regard. 300m people, X number of violent crimes committed with Y number of instances where someone resisted. It would be interesting to see whether, statistically, one is more or less likely to be injured or dead when being able to resist vs. not.

    "That's the wicked conundrum," Lanza-Kaduce said. "You can't have too many of these incidents before someone gets hurt." Cops agree. When victims resist, that's often when something happens, Orlando police Sgt. Barbara Jones said.
    Yeah, every thinking person would agree that when there's resistance, often (usually) something happens. That's not saying much of anything. "Wicked conundrum," alright. Dead victim or surviving victim? Hm, what a conundrum. Let me see ... door 1, 2 or three. Which one to choose?

    The day when one could marginally expect some consideration from a violent felon during a crime is long past. These days, you're just as likely to be clopped upside the head after the crime is over, as anything else, merely for having "dissed" the idiot somewhere during the crime in some manner you're not aware of.

    One could say that resistance is the ultimate "diss." Well, yeah. It sure is. I disrespect the hell out of someone attempting to perpetrate violence against me and mine. Resistance, frankly, offers me the best chance of stopping the crime, whether it be rape, kidnapping, assault or murder. Watching a crime against me isn't the goal; stopping it is. Is there some added risk of being injured or shot during the resistance? I'd argue there's far less chance than if I do nothing other than sit there and pray he goes away without harming me.

    Violence isn't easily stopped in its tracks via prayer or phone calls. It can, however, be stopped by, well, taking active steps to stop it. And when a good percentage of the BG's are packing, something a bit more powerful than one's middle finger is required to have a chance at stopping a violent attack against you.

    Duh.

    Simple test, in honor of the roll-over-and-die advice so prevalent from the mouths of "authority" figures: You've got a mountain lion approaching, and it doesn't care about politics or being PC. It's hungry and it wants you. You have on a table in front of you a collection of tools, which you might employ in the engagement about to occur. Pick one ... index finger, both hands, prayer book, telephone, rock, stick, knife, handgun, rifle. Pick one. Now, imagine that oncoming threat is a "street lion," some thug bent on committing immediate violence against you, your spouse, your child ... It really is that simple. This is a life lesson, the recognition that this sort of engagement is the ultimate rock/paper/scissors problem. Having your index finger, prayer book and cell phone when the oncoming threat has "teeth" is leaving a heck of a lot to chance. Moral of the story: Having sufficient means to repel violent attack is what can equate to successful resistance.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  5. #5
    VIP Member Array ron8903's Avatar
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    No permit is required to carry a weapon openly in the Sunshine State, though to carry a gun on your person requires a concealed-weapon license.


    Note: open carry is NOT legal in FL.
    Last edited by ron8903; June 21st, 2007 at 11:15 AM.
    "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."
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    Ron, you beat me to the punch... That is some dangerous misinformation right there!

    Lots of posts on that article also mentioning the mistake. I hope they correct it for the next issue.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  7. #7
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    Most studies that I've read do bear out this "wicked conundrum." Resistance (including running away, screaming, hands, improvised weapons, etc.) increases your chances of detering or defeating the thief/mugger/whatever. However, if the attacker is determined and overcomes the resistance, the likelihood that the victim will be seriously injured/killed increases.

    Some studies/articles:

    http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/q0360v85xu42248p/

    In cases of rape, however, this does not seem to be the case. These are some studies that deal with resistance levels in women who have been the victim or rape/attempted rape (abstracts can be found here - http://www.azrapeprevention.org/abstracts/injury.htm):

    Ullman, S. E., & Knight, R. A. (1991). A multivariate model for predicting rape and physical injury outcomes during sexual assaults. Journal of Consulting & Clinical Psychology, 59, 724-731.

    Zoucha-Jensen, J. M., & Coyne, A. (1993). The effects of resistance strategies on rape. American Journal of Public Health, 83, 1633-1634.

    Some interesting quotes from the abstracts:

    More forceful retaliation by the victim is associated with lower severity in sexual assault while nonforceful retaliation had no effect on sexual assault severity and increased the level of physical injury.
    Although the analysis could not determine causality, it did indicate that forceful verbal resistance, physical resistance, and fleeing were all associated with rape avoidance. Women who used forceful resistance were no more likely to have been injured than were women who did not resist.

    So, IMO, the best situation is to resist appropriately, and have the mindset, training, and tools (in that order) to defeat even determined attackers.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    You are either part of the solution, or you are part of the problem.
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  9. #9
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    You bet you will come out ahead./

    Quote Originally Posted by Smith&Wessonfan View Post
    I'll take my chances. Chances are that I will come out ahead.
    When have you ever heard of a victim having their gun taken and used against them? It is very rare if it happens at all. I have never come across this myself. Believe me if it did happen the media would be all over it. I too will take my chances by protecting myself with a gun.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  10. #10
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    "Len Morris, shooting two lanes away in the range, took the opposite tack. He would defend his family but, alone, would give in.

    'Last resort'

    "Just because you have a weapon doesn't mean you're guaranteed of the outcome," the Orlando man said. "It's a last resort."

    Before firing into a tight black bull's-eye on his target 15 yards out, Morris explained his logic.

    "You have to avoid the confrontation, if possible," he said. "But with what appears to be an increase of crime in this area, it just seems prudent to be able to defend yourself.""


    I don't fint this to be logical at all. Yes you have to avoid the confrontation but that is not always possible. The way these gang-bangers will kill you for absolutely nothing, I wouldn't stand idly by and hope for the best.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

    Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
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    Utah Permit Certified Instructor

  11. #11
    Member Array Deacon51's Avatar
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    If I'm ever confronted by a criminal intent on doing me or mine harm, I will first off try to run avoid the conflict, running or hiding maybe.
    If that doesn't work, I try to dial 911... then pray a lot wile I wait on the Police to respond.

    But I live in Maryland and we are not allowed to fight back here.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron8903 View Post
    No permit is required to carry a weapon openly in the Sunshine State, though to carry a gun on your person requires a concealed-weapon license.


    Note: open carry is NOT legal in FL.
    Yeah, I didn't think so. In fact, wasn't there a big issue about it in '87, and the CCW law rectified it? At first, according to what I've read, they passed an open carry law, and then quickly changed it to be for concealed carry.

    I loved this quote:
    Cops agree. When victims resist, that's often when something happens, Orlando police Sgt. Barbara Jones said.
    Lately, people have been shot after complying with their robbers' demands, more and more. So NOT resisting is as harmful as this cop is saying resisting MIGHT be. But at least if you resist, you're fighting, and have a chance at winning the fight. If you offer NO resistance, you have chosen to be the default loser of the fight, and you will get whatever your attacker decides to give you.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    You know it's a funny thing. I live in the greater Orlando area and have had conversations with several street cops here regarding crime and self defense. The LEO on the streets seems to have the attitude that only a fool does not take steps to defend themselves against criminals and are very pro CCW. It's the political administrators who seem to be handing out this "sage wisdom". I was actually a bit surprised at the article. They are usually more rabidly anti gun and self defense.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

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