Outraged at the NRA: Why I No Longer Support The Nation's Largest Gun Control Lobby" - Page 3

Outraged at the NRA: Why I No Longer Support The Nation's Largest Gun Control Lobby"

This is a discussion on Outraged at the NRA: Why I No Longer Support The Nation's Largest Gun Control Lobby" within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by sailormnop The only way ANY candidate wins is through the support of organizations and individual voters. To say, "Win - then I'll ...

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Thread: Outraged at the NRA: Why I No Longer Support The Nation's Largest Gun Control Lobby"

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sailormnop View Post
    The only way ANY candidate wins is through the support of organizations and individual voters. To say, "Win - then I'll support you," is like saying,"Be born, grow up, don't get in trouble, and make us proud - then your mother and I will decide to have a child." Somebody has to lead. Somebody has to say, "I will vote based on principle, and hope there are still enough Americans left with the guts to do the same, because, if there are not, America is lost anyway."
    Voting for a third party candidate based on principle means nothing unless enough other people agree with you to get them elected. Lets say there are three candidates:

    An anti-gun candidate who would vote to renew the AWB and all sorts of other nasty things.
    A pro-gun candidate who wouldn't vote for any new gun control measures.
    A third-party anti-gun-control candidate who would vote to repeal a bunch of existing gun laws.

    Obviously I agree with the anti-gun-control candidate. However, the self-satisfaction I get from voting for him is not worth letting an anti-gun candidate get elected because the pro-2A vote gets split between two candidates. I'm not voting for the best pro-gun candidate, I'm voting to keep the anti-gunner out of office.


  2. #32
    Member Array sailormnop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Voting for a third party candidate based on principle means nothing unless enough other people agree with you to get them elected. Lets say there are three candidates:

    An anti-gun candidate who would vote to renew the AWB and all sorts of other nasty things.
    A pro-gun candidate who wouldn't vote for any new gun control measures.
    A third-party anti-gun-control candidate who would vote to repeal a bunch of existing gun laws.

    Obviously I agree with the anti-gun-control candidate. However, the self-satisfaction I get from voting for him is not worth letting an anti-gun candidate get elected because the pro-2A vote gets split between two candidates. I'm not voting for the best pro-gun candidate, I'm voting to keep the anti-gunner out of office.

    And as long as most pro-2a voters vote like you, the anti-gun crowd slowly wins.
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  3. #33
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sailormnop View Post
    And as long as most pro-2a voters vote like you, the anti-gun crowd slowly wins.
    If most pro-2A voters switched to voting libertarian, the anti-gunners would win instantly. The sad fact is there just aren't enough of us to put candidates into office on our own. We can, however, swing fairly close elections against the anti-gunners.

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    It can be dangerous to ignore that practical politics are necessary to advance any agenda. To be a total ideologue is to marginalize one's impact, or to achieve unintended negative results. Don't believe that? Just ask the folks who voted for Nader in Florida in 2000.

    I'm always puzzled by those who claim it as a badge of honor to belong to no political party. This is another way of marginalizing one's clout. A very real part of political power in our republic is the selection of candidates and initiatives. If you write off that part of the political process, you're way behind the curve when it comes to influencing real policy decisions.

    I know, it's a very bad system we have. It is, however, better than all the others.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  5. #35
    Member Array sailormnop's Avatar
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    Which is worse?
    1) A slow progress into a totalitarian, socialist state that most people are accustimed to and therefore accept as the norm,

    or 2) Preciptious change that shocks all good Americans into actually doing something and rolling back the clock on freedom.

    The lesser of two evils is still evil. I will not give my support to that evil. I say vote for a candidate who you think actually will do the right thing. When Hillary destroys our government, we might have made enough noise that people will know who to turn to.

    Of course, this won't happen - most people will hang on to this failing system by their bloody fingernails and pass on something a little bit (or a lot) worse to their children.
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  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array Stetson's Avatar
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    The NRA largest lobbying group in USA with 4 million members.Thirty-
    five dollars a year is cheap money so my kids and their kids will have
    the ability to enjoy firearms like I do.To those who don't like this organization I encourage you to join one that 's more to your
    taste.We owe it to the future of our sport and protection.

  7. #37
    Member Array sailormnop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodc13 View Post
    It can be dangerous to ignore that practical politics are necessary to advance any agenda.
    Advance? More like slowly retreat. None of the "1st echelon" candidates support the 2a or true freedom in general (the Constitution). They all give it lip service (if that) while stealthily committing treason by yielding more and more of our national soveriegnty and individual freedoms to the UN, illegal aliens, "world opinion", big corporations, and special interest groups. Every one of them is going to move us towards Hillary's ideal - not away from it.
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  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sailormnop View Post
    Which is worse?
    1) A slow progress into a totalitarian, socialist state that most people are accustimed to and therefore accept as the norm,

    or 2) Preciptious change that shocks all good Americans into actually doing something and rolling back the clock on freedom.
    Why do you seem to think things are getting worse? We haven't had a significant federal gun control law since 1994. The AWB expired in 2004 when anti-gunners weren't able to muster enough votes to renew it. Shall-issue concealed carry has spread from a handful of states to almost the entire country today. More and more states have passed Castle Doctrine laws. It's far from a perfect world, but we are going in the right direction!

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Why do you seem to think things are getting worse? We haven't had a significant federal gun control law since 1994. The AWB expired in 2004 when anti-gunners weren't able to muster enough votes to renew it. Shall-issue concealed carry has spread from a handful of states to almost the entire country today. More and more states have passed Castle Doctrine laws. It's far from a perfect world, but we are going in the right direction!
    Hmm, Why is it that we need Castle Doctrine laws? Why is it that states need to pass concealed carry laws? Two laws already covered both. One being Natural law, the law of morality, the law to protect oneself at all costs. Two, being the one already enumerated in the Constitution. Instead of being able to protect and govern ourselves being the norm and expected, we are now relegated to asking permission and looking for blessing..."please daddy sam, can I go outside and play". When rights become priviledges we're not going in the right(no pun intended) direction.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    Hmm, Why is it that we need Castle Doctrine laws? Why is it that states need to pass concealed carry laws? Two laws already covered both. One being Natural law, the law of morality, the law to protect oneself at all costs. Two, being the one already enumerated in the Constitution.
    Natural law doesn't get enforced in the courts. You've got written law and precedent (common law) and that's it. As for constitutional law, it has been eviscerated, particularly where the 2A is concerned. The way to fix that is to prevent anti-gunners from winning elections and appointing judges who do not think the 2A means what it says. That's exactly what's been happening. No way Parker v. D.C. would have come out in our favor 20 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    Instead of being able to protect and govern ourselves being the norm and expected, we are now relegated to asking permission and looking for blessing..."please daddy sam, can I go outside and play". When rights become priviledges we're not going in the right(no pun intended) direction.
    I agree that not having to ask for permission would be better. As I said above, what we have now is not an ideal world. But having to ask "Mother may I" and getting a yes is definitely an improvement over having to ask "Mother may I" and getting a no. Furthermore, things like CCW permits can be a step on the way to no-permit carry. Alaska had shall-issue CCW before adopting Vermont style no permit necessary laws.

  11. #41
    Member Array sailormnop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Why do you seem to think things are getting worse? We haven't had a significant federal gun control law since 1994. The AWB expired in 2004 when anti-gunners weren't able to muster enough votes to renew it. Shall-issue concealed carry has spread from a handful of states to almost the entire country today. More and more states have passed Castle Doctrine laws. It's far from a perfect world, but we are going in the right direction!
    There is more to freedom than the RKBA. I know the 2a is the one that allows us to protect all the rest from usurpations of government, but if we willingly give up everything else, what's the point? And this is on both sides of the aisle in Washington. On the one hand you have the Patriot Act, an unwillingness to protect the country from foreign invasion, and corruption at the highest levels. On the other you have Universal Health Care, welfare, high taxes, regulation of everything you can imagine, and corruption at the highest levels.

    Two examples:
    1) Here in Hampton Roads, we have just been subjected to something called the Regional Transportation Authority. We will be taxed, fee-ed, and fined to death and we never got a vote on it. Oh, wait, we did vote on it in a referendum several years ago and rejected it. So they waited a little while for everyone to forget and did it anyway. Of the 11 municipalities in the area, 6 city councils voted to go ahead with the RTA and somehow we are all bound by it. The people on the board of the RTA won't even be elected, even though they will be governing. As soon as I can, I'm moving the hell out of here.

    2) The people of the United States have clearly and loudly said to the politicians, "CLOSE THE BORDER - then deal with the illegals who are already here." So up in Washington, they met in committee, talked about it, and decided to go ahead with amnesty and no solution to the constant influx. The problem will just get worse and everybody knows it.

    This isn't just about gun rights. It's about what those rights are meant to protect. Our elected officials repeatedly ignore the supreme law of the land and the people and do whatever they want for their own ends. Both of the big parties are leading us to the same result: more government control of our lives. They have slightly different styles, but that's about it.
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  12. #42
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sailormnop View Post
    There is more to freedom than the RKBA.
    There is more to liberty than the 2A, but I think I have a somewhat narrower view than you do.

    There are four rights I hold precious above all others: the right to free speech, the right to elect those who will represent us, the right to be tried by a jury of our peers, and the right to keep and bear arms. Or as Ed Howdershelt put it, "There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now."

    Of these four, I think our 2A rights are presently under the greatest threat, and I will vote as best I can to preserve it. In the future, if I become more concerned about one of the other three, then I'll vote accordingly (though at this point that would either take a massive increase in firearms rights or a massive decrease in one of the other three). If I thought all four of these rights were secure, then I would feel free to vote for candidates on the basis of tax or immigration policy. Unfortunately, that is not the case today, nor is it likely to be in the immediate future. If I must choose, I would much rather live in a free country with socialistic levels of taxation and awash in illegal immigrants than a low-tax, immigrant-free dictatorship.

    This turn of the debate may well get the thread locked, since it's wandering a bit from 2A News and Discussions, so we may not want to continue much further in this direction.

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array palmgopher's Avatar
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    what a lot of people know but really pay attention to is that these people that we elect are not voting on what we want. they vote on what they want and what will benefit them most(bribes and such). we just try to get the guy that focuses the most on what we want too, except we never see any of the money that is given to them. as many people have stated everything is not black and white, right and wrong. this is an imperfect world run by imperfect people trying to deal with imperfect laws in a corrupt system, like it or not. Our system is no less corrupt than communism but we at least have a say on who reaps the benefits. Like it or not folks we have not been a democracy for a long time. We are a society that is run and dominated by business. We vote for the guy that gets the most money from business, not people, and therefore gets the most airtime and face time with the public. Yes it sucks that things are not like they SHOULD be but as many have stated it could be a LOT worse than it is. We have gained a lot from what they really have taken away a LONG time ago. We are making more and more believers of our "cause" every day. it is only a matter of time before things get back to the way they should be. Also our system was NEVER designed to be a two party system. The two systems that are there now will beat up the third party to protect the two person race. if you notice that it looks like it will be a 3 party race the other two parties will say truce and bash the 3rd. but that is another topic all together.

  14. #44
    Ex Member Array DOGOFWAR01's Avatar
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    lots of good points and discussion -

    did anyone send an e-mail to the NRA stating - keeping my membership but the NRA will receive no more money - until the NRA stops supporting any form of gun control ?

    did anyone make a personal decision to not send anymore money to the NRA except for membership dues ?

    did anyone join the GOA, SAS, AFM, or SAF ?

    did anyone join the U.S. Constitution Party or Liberatain Party ?

    what would happen the ACLU anti-gun stance if all members of the NRA, SAF, SAS, AFM, and GOA ... joined the ACLU ? would the ALCU then have to change to pro-gun instead of anti- gun ?

    did you know AARP is anti-gun ? are you a member of an anti-gun organization - meaning AARP ?

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array Sig 210's Avatar
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    "2) The people of the United States have clearly and loudly said to the politicians, "CLOSE THE BORDER - then deal with the illegals who are already here." So up in Washington, they met in committee, talked about it, and decided to go ahead with amnesty and no solution to the constant influx. The problem will just get worse and everybody knows it."

    The scumbag politicians in DC cut a deal with special interest groups. No witnesses are ever going to be called in this blanket amnesty scheme for illegals. In the end an illegal will be able to take his electric bill to the INS and get a green card: Never mind that he is on a terrorist wanted list under his real name.

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