When will we be free?
I'll start this with the second amendment, but this will carry to others. It will be up to you to pull out the Bill of Rights to determine which I speak of. If you agree or disagree I want to hear your opinion.
"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
OK, any questions on shall not be infringed? Do we need a definition?
Main Entry: in·fringe
Inflected Forms: in·fringed; in·fring·ing
Etymology: Medieval Latin infringere, from Latin, to break, crush, from in- in + frangere to break
transitive verb : to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another <the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed —U.S. Constitution amendment II>; especially : to violate a holder's rights under (a copyright, patent, trademark, or trade name) intransitive verb : ENCROACH —in·fring·er noun
That is from WEBSTER'S, notice that to help DEFINE and explain infringe, they use the Second Amendment.
"to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another"
I think I've made my point on the second...
Now let's discuss others.
Freedom of religion is guarnateed, freedom FROM religion is not. If I want to pray before my kids football game I can. You do not have to listen or agree with what I say. You however cannot STOP me from saying it!!!!!!
Illegal search and seizure...are you a terrorist? Maybe, maybe not. But you have a large assortment of firearms that COULD be used for terrorist activities (not that a car and some fetilizer can't but hear me out) so what keeps your from being labeled as one of them and being locked up without access to a lawyer. I'll give you this one too, you guess which one it is.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
probable cause does not mean "Well boss, he's PROBABLY a terrorist..."
And for those that say these are "collective" or "state's" rights or in the Second Amendment's case a right for the "militia" I add this...
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Stand up and be heard, the rights our Forefathers died for are being legislated away. They BLED for it, today all you need to do is VOTE for it. (for now) DO NOT let the slide down the slippery slope continue, the very way you live your lives teters on the edge.
Think about it people, what mark do you leave on this world when you leave it, other than the legacy you leave for your children. Which world do you want your kids to live in??? I know where I stand.
Are we afraid of this topic?? I challenge you to respond!!!!
Ill respond ...
IMHO your trolling for an argument, Limitations on the bill of rights are a fact of life , even restrictions on the 2nd are a fact of life . I for one am glad i live here in America with our rights , and proud that we help other countrys achieve the rights for citizens that we take for granted . Is our current state perfect NO it isnt , but then what in real life is ? You seem to me to want to pitch a couple of rocks in the pond to see how the ripples form .. well consider the progress that " shall issue " statutes have made , consider the so called assault weapons ban has expired , consider that the new " nics improvement " bill also includes once again funding the appeals process to restore gun ownership rights ( which has been unfunded since the clinton era .. so no appeals were possible ) . Common sense dictates that no right is absolute , for instance my right to be profane and insulting is superseded by the board owners right to edit/delete my posts . We as grass roots americans have spoken and the elected elite have heard us . Restrictions on gun rights is a sure ticket to political unemployment . Personaly i consider everything since and including the gca of 1968 to be over restrictive .. but that is just me . Most of america has no problem with the brady bill ect.. and in a constitutional republic i live with that .
OK Redneck, I will answer your ascertation that I am a troll...I do NOT post frequently and perhaps for those that count the numbers that matters. I have been here for 2 years. Now you have stated that you "live with the brady bill" my question is WHY? Why do you live with the denial of rights guaranteed by the founding document of our Nation? Because it's easier? Because it's what the "people" want. Who is the people? The people are ONLY those that stand up and demand to be heard! IF you live with that you let them have their way. DO YOU BELIEVE THEIR WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY!? If not stand up and make your vote count!!!!!!1
Free If you feel i called you a troll apologies are in order and given by me . I said you are trolling for an argument not that you are a troll , or that post numbers count for anything . IMHO you are howeaver " stirring the pot " with this post and it is sure to get out of hand . As to the rest of your latest post i do in fact vote , not only that but am actively involved with my state reps ( both of whom are personal friends that i have known far longer than their political careers ). I do live in the real world tho , and Laws are Laws , if i agree with them or not they still exist and have been passed by our accepted procedures. We did not get to the state we are in overnight , and we wont get back out of it overnight . My point is the pendulum is in fact allready swinging our way , we just need to encourage the swing .
Sorry bud if the term "troll" stirred me. All is forgiven and understood now that I reread your post. However, the basis of my post was to "stir the pot" there are alot of "non-thinkers" out there. Maybe they're not here maybe they are. But I am looking for some intelligent debate on freedom and rights. I was expecting to get it here. However my current attempts may have gotten me uninvited so this converstaion may go no further. (I hope that is not the case.)
Bud again apologys for dropping the T bomb in my post , It was honestly done but as an activity ( such as you troll for comment like a fisherman trolls for a fish ) , not a mindset . I honestly feel tho that most members of most gun boards are actively involved to the extent they can be . So imho your " preaching to the choir " so to speak .. and a much less confrontational tone is more suitable for the great unwashed . I wish you the best on your quest to educate but did answer the challange to respond , and just as i saw the original post .
Thanks Redneck...unfortunately except for you I failed. My post was DESIGNED to provoke a response. I wanted to hear others opinion, I did not. Except for one brave soul nobody rose to the challenge. Thanks for participating, I now know why the anti's keep winning...NOBODY responds.
No offence but you are stating the obvious. Over the last 60-90 years, the Supreme Court has turned many of the rights in the Bill of Rights on their head, while creating rights of privacy, including the right to abortion, out of whole cloth. This is what the whole argument between original intent and living document is about.
Free give it a bit of time you will have some responses on this post , i just jumped in early and animately . Others will chime in as they log in .
edited to add : due to the nature of the post a thread lock would not supprise me since its an emotional issue for many and they will post their honest emotions rather than a reasoned discussion . I could be wrong and have been most of my life , but this could easily be a hot button thread .
I understand that I am a little hypocritical in some of my views regarding the necessary NICS checks. I know that I have done nothing wrong. I have no skeletons (or bodies) to hide, and know that there is no reason to check my background. However, I don't know you or what you have or have not done, and because of that, every one else should be (checked).
Yes, I am very aware of how hypocritical that is. On the other hand, possession of certain types of weapons (such as: full auto) should not be limited to only those that will pay the price. My privacy, nor anyone else's, should not be invaded simply because of their choice to possess certain weapons.
The NICS check is, in my opinion as well as others, un-Constitutional, and should be repealed, but then again (see above).
As Redneck said, we didn't get here over night, and we aren't going to get back overnight. You think the liberal panic is bad when another state passes pro-gun laws such as concealed carry and Castle Doctrine now? Just wait until someone who is in no ones pocket gets into office and starts stirring the pot in D.C.. Forget about getting a dozen people in office with this mindset. Even less likely to get a president with these ideals...for now. The times are a changing. Not nearly as quickly as most of us would like, but they are changing.
The more things go in our favor, the louder the opposition gets. Sometimes opening ourselves up as sheep to slaughter and getting hip deep into the argument helps. Often it does not. If you are "Average Joe" or "Jane", we look like fanatics in some eyes. If you have some status in politics or media, then your argument is heard a little better.
No one of us is going to be able to combat the Brady's and similar organizations. It is going to take more money and time than any one person or small group is going to be able to scrounge. Is that a reason to not be at the very least vocal to some degree? No, but you have to choose your battles. You are not going to get an audience in UCLA Berkley if your preaching the gospel of the Second Amendment, and your preaching to the choir at an NRA convention. So where is the middle ground? Your home? Your workplace? How about on the street corner between the bum and the crack dealer?
It is in our best interest to support the candidates that speak in favor of our causes, buy and read the associated magazines and periodicals , even buying more firearms and ammunition. By having venues such as this is paramount in our fight. When we drive membership to a website like this one, people read it. They see that we are not the nut balls decked out in camo, bunkered down somewhere in the wilderness just waiting for the gov't to come and get some. They find out that many of the people they already know are enthusiasts. We are doctors, lawyers, students, painters, writers, and so on.
Do feathers get ruffled when 1911 guys rip on Glock owners? Yeah, but most of us know that it is all in good fun. More sibling rivalry than anything. I would gladly have a Glock owner cover my six when the fit hits the shan. Heck, I would even be happy with a Beretta watching my back.
We get bent out of shape when another gun law is proposed, but we sit back and pay taxes collectively quiet. Our forefathers rose up against the throne for this reason as well as others. Why isn't there more voice on this too?
I question your ascertation that it is preaching to the choir at an NRA convention...they have in my opinion a checkered history on pure 2A issues.
I also agree with your statement on paying taxes, unfortuantely the choice is made more difficult since many politicians who are pro-gun...LOVE to tax!
I will however argue your contention that one or a small group of us cannot make a difference. Take a look at what VCDL has done here in VA. A very small group, in a relatively large state, and they have been affecting VA gun laws for over 10 years...POSITIVELY. Small groups and individuals can make a difference but we have to latch on to the issues, the ones that REALLY matter, and fight.
If I were on the other side of VCDL's relentless attacks I am not sure I could keep thinking differently from them. They are persuasive, accurate and persistent. Organizations like these, who truly believe in their cause, will make a difference.
Brady and the other anti's don't have a chance if we actually start taking them to task. After all, these people are in it for vengeance, not justice. They had a family member hurt by a gun, obviously it was the gun's fault! Just like the car is guilty of DUI, the dope is guilty of being posessed, and the pencil is guilty of the misspelled word.
But don't just fight for one right, that is the point I am trying to make. Don't let the government erode your other rights while watching our for the 2A rights. Maybe the attack on gun rights is just a diversion, then before you know it the 4th Amendment is gone!
After only two hours, that's quite an assumption. :wink:
Originally Posted by Free American
"When will we be free" of all yokes? The day we have no government at all. But, then we'd have overlording by BG's, a decidedly rockier road.
All things considered, I'd much prefer to have an over-reaching batch of elected that can be hung in the public square when they screw over the People, versus any number of variations on "government" that other countries have tried. It's about the most honorable and fair that has been devised, while supporting liberties most can only dream of.
"... shall not be infringed." Yeah, that's a doosie. Few of the publicly-elected types seem to appreciate how simple and straightforward this admonition is. It's a clear denial of any right or authority of anyone to restrict this right of the People. So long as we have a dishonorable legal system with judges on the take and elected folks paying lip service to their Service to the People, we'll have to fight for every inch. Better this way than the alternatives, IMO.