The End of America: May 10, 2005/National ID

The End of America: May 10, 2005/National ID

This is a discussion on The End of America: May 10, 2005/National ID within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc. P.O. Box 270143 Hartford, WI 53027 Phone (262) 673-9745 Fax (262) 673-9746 May 11, 2005 The ...

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Thread: The End of America: May 10, 2005/National ID

  1. #1
    Member Array Monty's Avatar
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    The End of America: May 10, 2005/National ID

    Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc.
    P.O. Box 270143
    Hartford, WI 53027

    Phone (262) 673-9745
    Fax (262) 673-9746
    May 11, 2005

    The End of America: May 10, 2005

    On Tuesday, May 10, 2005, America became a true police state. Your U.S. senators voted -- unanimously, with no discussion, and without even reading the bill -- to create a national ID card.

    The Real ID Act blackmails state governments into turning their drivers licenses into a draconian tool of the federal homeland security apparatus. If states refuse, their citizens lose such "privileges" as being allowed to board an airplane, enter a federal building, or apply for social security. President Bush is expected to sign the bill eagerly on Thursday.

    In three years -- by May 2008 -- this Stalin-style internal passport will be an American reality. But your government will have more control over you than Stalin ever dreamed in his most violent, vicious, anti-freedom dreams. (See links to the text of the law and articles about it at the bottom of this article.)

    But that's only the beginning.

    The creator of the Real ID Act, Rep. James Sensenbrenner, smiles and tells us that his Real ID Act is all about "solving illegal immigration" or "preventing terrorists from entering the country." This is one of the biggest of the thousands of "Big Lies" we've heard from the tyrants in Washington. The Real ID Act is about tracking and controlling Americans. You. Me. Our children. Everybody.

    In May 2008, barring a miracle, America as we once knew it will be in ruins. It will be gone. And the rights of gun owners will be among the first scheduled for destruction.


    Here's your future:

    You walk into a gun store, fill out your 4473, and show your government ID just as you now do. But instead of looking at your license and taking down some information, the clerk runs the license (which is likely to contain a radio-frequency ID chip) through a scanner. Your purchase is instantly recorded in your state drivers license registry. The federal government isn't currently allowed to keep a gun registry. But no problem; the Real ID act gives them an open door into your state records.

    Complete information on every firearm you buy will be instantly available to every police officer (and possibly every government employee, store clerk, or computer hacker) you ever encounter. You'll be an instant criminal suspect every time you deal with someone who has access to the database.

    Just as travelers are encouraged to get background checks and give fingerprints to avoid some of the worst excesses of TSA screening, gun owners will be encouraged to get background checks and give whatever biometric ID the Department of Homeland Security requires. This will be sold as a "benefit," ensuring you'll never again experience an "instant-check" delay. In fact, Congress, the ATF, or the FBI might even "mandate" 5-day or 15-day delays for anyone not enrolled in the "Trusted Firearms Buyer" program.

    The private purchase "loophole" will be closed, so that all gun buyers must make trackable purchases. (The ultimate goal is for every purchase of every kind to be trackable.)

    Buying ammo? The store scans your national ID card and -- bingo! -- your purchase is registered in the state database.

    The federal government or state governments can now also _effectively_ legislate limits on the amount or kind of ammunition you're "allowed" to purchase. Try to buy more and the database instantly rejects you.

    The federal government or state governments can now also _effectively_ legislate limits on the number of guns you may own. Try to buy more, and the database rejects you.

    Eventually -- after the federal government "discovers" the obvious, that national ID won't stop either illegal immigration or terrorism -- the old attack on "evil guns" will resume. When they want your .50 BMG they'll know just where to find it (because the Real ID act says your home address _must_ be revealed). When they want your evil "scoped sniper rifle" (you know, the one you hunt deer with), they'll know just how to get it. Ditto with you "Saturday Night Special" or your "assault weapon."

    If you don't surrender your guns, well, then the Department of Homeland Security will cut off your driving "privilege," as well as your right to escape the growing police state via plane. You'll be a prisoner in your own home, in your own country. Or you'll be forced to function as an outlaw, operating and living a precarious existence beneath the government radar.


    You say these projections are ridiculous? That we're paranoid?

    Well, frankly, if the Real ID Act doesn't make you paranoid, you're not paying enough attention. We ask you to consider the long-term impact of a few other acts of government.

    In the 1930s, Congress promised us that our social security numbers would never, absolutely never, be used for identification. Now, they're the key to everything about us -- and without a social security number you won't get a drivers license and you won't even be "allowed" to drive after May 2008.

    In 1913, Congress and the media swore to us that the brand- new income tax would only affect the rich. Well, how rich do you feel after paying 40 percent of your income (or more!) in taxes?

    This is the way government works. They've even got a term for it: mission creep. And there is no creepier mission than the mission the federal government has currently set itself: to track everyone, everywhere, and to control what we do.

    We warned you in The State vs. the People that this was coming. That book is still relevant, still a good read, and still filled with information about what our future will be like in this new American police state.

    Be forewarned. Be aware.


    Please take a moment to go to this site: Click on the link that leads to the song "Justice Day." Listen to the music or read the lyrics. Here's the opening of the song:

    You're the boot.
    Stomping on the human face forever.
    You're the eye.
    Staring down on everyone and ever seeing all.
    You're the lie.
    Twisting all our minds into your whoredom.
    You are Death.
    You are war.
    You are slavery.
    You're the law.
    You're the law.
    You're the LAW!

    George Orwell was the first to describe totalitarianism as a "boot stomping on the human face forever." But in Orwell's day Americans would have had a hard time believing that the law -- the good old, all-American legislature -- all those smiling senators and "representatives" would be the ones to plant their iron heels in our faces. Back in those innocent days, we imagined tyranny would come from outside.

    Well, tyranny is here. And it's a gift from the very people we so trustingly put into office.

    Tyranny is THE LAW.

    Is this a way to run a country? Tacking something as onerous as national ID onto a must-pass bill and making it law without any debate? What does this say about people the gun owners consider their friends? In the House, where the bill containing the Real ID Act passed 368-58, only three Republicans voted against it. Here's the final roll-call vote so you can see how your own congressperson voted.

    In the Senate, not one person cared enough about freedom to vote against it -- or even to demand that senators discuss it.

    (The Real ID Act originally passed the House in February as a standalone bill (H.R. 418) by a vote of 261-to-161. House leaders, realizing national ID would have been in trouble in the Senate, then added it to a must-pass military appropriations bill in a cynical ploy to make it almost impossible to fight national ID.)

    Turning America into a full-fledged police state was just business as usual to your representatives. And, just as Adolf Hitler scrupulously followed German law while committing his horrors, so your "representatives" and the bureaucrats you face at the national-ID drivers license bureau will also be following the law -- the Real ID law that allows them to enslave you.

    (To see what a real Bill of Rights leader would do, read the novel Hope by Aaron Zelman and L. Neil Smith)


    We have two choices now: Resist or submit.

    More than 600 organizations, from the American Civil Liberties Union to the National Governors Association, opposed the bill. Even the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators (which loves national ID and was largely responsible for an earlier attempt at such legislation nine years ago) criticized it.

    We can expect lawsuits against national ID, including at least one suit led by state governments.

    However, nearly all the opposition from state governments focuses on one area: They're upset because the federal government didn't offer them extra money to enslave us. If Congress bribes them with enough millions and billions, they'll gladly sell our freedom.

    Ultimately, real resistance is up to us, as individuals. There are certain courses of action JPFO cannot recommend. But every freedom lover should be pleased if all the people who had a hand in creating Real ID act lost their jobs -- soon. And those individuals who truly value their (and their children's) futures should seriously consider making national ID their line in the sand.

    We have already heard from many people saying they will drive without a license rather than submit to a license that has become a Stalinist control document. We just hope their resolve stays equally strong when they face a world in which it's impossible to buy, sell, retire, travel -- or buy a gun -- without national ID.

    We ask you to remember men like Alexandr Solzhenitzyn and Natan Sharansky. Both stood up and boldly opposed a tyrannical regime in the Soviet Union. Both risked their lives. Both suffered horribly for their resistance and their protests. But eventually, they triumphed -- and the Soviet Union crumbled.

    We are in need of such people, and such courage, today. We cannot wait for someone else to stand up and show that kind of integrity.

    We must become the kind of people we admire if we are ever again to live in a nation we can trust.

    G-d help us if we fail.*

    - The Liberty Crew
    Last edited by Monty; May 12th, 2005 at 05:26 PM. Reason: Modify Title

  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Oh screw this.

    Seriously this is not acceptable.

    No. What are some other ways to fight this before we're forced to become outlaws?

  3. #3
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    Just another brick in the wall.

    and one step closer to one world government...

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns
    Just another brick in the wall.

    and one step closer to one world government...


  5. #5
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    I told myself I would purchase an AR 15 before Bush leaves office.

    This clinches it. I want a Dillon 550 for Christmas.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array Prospector's Avatar
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    Makes me want to puke...gotta go along with Euc....need to store up while the gettin is good....brass, bullets, powder, climate-controlled room to store all that crap! Why do they have to constantly make my life complicated?
    "Endeavor To Persevere"
    Chief Dan George

  7. #7
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    [sarcasm]If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to be afraid of.[/sarcasm]
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  8. #8
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    Sorry...I don't Buy It.

    Actually, I'm not quite biting on very much of this.
    I've been hearing it all for too long.
    It's over reactionary and it is slightly paranoid.
    Is this the dreaded "666 Implanted Satanic Evil Computer Chip Mark Of The Beast" that folks have been fretting about ever since computers were invented?
    First of all the government (FBI CIA Secret Service DHS) (pick one) can find out anything that they want to about you already...all the way back to your elementary school records and birth records. They can do it with or without your Social Security number.
    And if they want to find things out about you then they will talk to your employer and your neighbors and your girlfriend/boyfriend and your paperboy & your high school English teacher and everybody and anybody else that you ever had any human contact with.
    Already have a criminal record?...they have easy access to that already too.
    And...if they want...they can get your dental records and your medical records and your military service records and they can already get an easy mouth swab warrant for your DNA....if they really need one.
    And if you're caught driving while intoxicated you'll sure hafta submit to a BAC test. If you get busted for ARE getting a blood test or giving a hair matter if you want to or not.
    And if you murder your entire family they sure will seize your home computer & track your ISP address & find out everywhere you ever surfed on the web. And they can ALREADY plant a locator on your vehicle and GPS track you wherever you go...right out to your hidden weapon stash in the swamps.
    And (Guess What) you're already being videotaped in every store and bank & convenience store that you walk into.
    Your cell phone calls and locations & your home phone calls are already on permanent record. And you sure are on camera record when you walk into Wally World and buy your ammo tomorrow or when you walk into nearly any gun store.
    Your purchase and your image is probably already being vid~documented making that purchase anyway. If not yet...then in a few years it sure will be.
    So...if anything...a National ID would just speed their ability to look at what they can already GET if they need it anyway.
    Everybody here already uses credit cards probably to buy nearly everything gun related anyway and every C.C. Card Company already has a searchable record of every firearm (& everything else) you have purchased with your credit card.
    And all of your cell phone calls and your ATM transactions can already be tracked all over the US.
    And they can already bug your house and your phone and your car and you would never even know it.
    So...I mean if you want to sell your house & buy a shack in the woods and live like a hermit milking goats somewhere and barter chickens for Granola Bars and ammo...then I guess you're still pretty much Untouchable in the United States these days.
    So what do I see happening in the United States these days?
    I see an internal war going on against infiltrated foreign terrorists.
    I see Law Enforcement Teamed up with some AMAZINGLY qualified Forensic Experts to solve some pretty horrific crimes.
    I see government taking an active role in tracking down people that have some serious ill intentions for America.
    I see Law Enforcement using every tool available to combat gang violence & wanton murder.
    I see some SERIOUS work being done to track dangerous and deadly chemicals and goods.
    D.O.T. has really tightened things up.
    Airport security is the same joke it ALWAYS has been.
    And basically I see EVERYBODY ELSE that is minding their own business being pretty much LEFT COMPLETELY ALONE. Am I wrong about that?
    VIDEO FACE RECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY is already a reality so ANY National ID Card is going to be TOTALLY OBSOLETE ANYWAY in another decade. As long as you have a face they are going to know who you are and where you are anyway & nothing is going to change that from happening.
    I'll hafta look out my front window and see if I can spot some Nazi stormtroopers dressed up as American Gun Confiscation Soldiers out there.
    Oh please...cut me a freakin' break!
    And the very same argument that WE use about how many MILLIONS of guns are already "out there" on the streets is the very same reason why "door to door" confiscation will never work.
    And...if guns and ammo get scarce enough then the universal law of "Supply And Demand" will "kick In" and illegal guns and ammo will get smuggled in right alongside the few billion pounds of drugs that are already being smuggled in. Meanwhile...the "wack" theory that our soldiers are going to obey orders and start roaming around the country waging war and shooting other Americans that don't "Obey" restrictive gun legislation is totally nuts. Don't all American soldiers have Moms and Dads and Brothers and Sisters & Aunts and Uncles?
    It's a serious error to judge America by what Nazi Germany did. It really ISN'T going to happen here. Maybe 300 years from might.
    Meanwhile...ask yourself "Who is our Evil Government?"
    The Government is just a whole bunch of ordinary Americans who all have wives and husbands and Families and extended families and friends who ARE NOT Government. So...who decides who gets jackbooted out of their respective beds in the middle of the night to do slave labor in the Yellowstone National Park Concentration Camp?
    I'm sorry that I just never bought into the idea of America turning into Nazi Germany.
    The actual scenario in this country (for anything like that to realistically happen) would already need to be SO BAD that there would already be a total breakdown of structured society & riots, complete chaos, and us "Gun Folks" would be in the hills by then anyway and our volunteer army soldiers would be there with us and not against us.
    I could go on forever...but I'll guess I'll stop now.
    You folks can sweat it all if you want to but I sure am not sweatin' it even one little bit.
    Just my logical, humble, and happily optimistic opinion.
    Oh...and wait...I think our gun laws are actually becoming LESS restrictive right now...huh? How could that be happening...we're all about to be attacked by American Nazis & they gave us BACK Hi Cap Magazines???? That was really dumb of the Nazi Government Of The United States Of America to do that.
    Oh...wait...I dreamed that the assault weapons ban recently got lifted.... I'm confused???...why is the government making it EASIER for us to WAGE BETTER WAR on the government?
    Last edited by QKShooter; May 13th, 2005 at 02:03 AM.
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  9. #9
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    I have to say I am with QKShooter on this one. There was a time that I would have been stocking ammo and food and water and sandbags. Not now. I'm ready. Lay it on me. I want every damned illegal alien that comes across that border to know that he's not going to get a driver's license, employment, welfare or any other service we may provide. I want to know that the guy next to me at a checkout line or the car next to me at a traffic light is supposed to be in this country. By denying them drivers licenses, you deny them the ability to assimilate into our society. Lesser of two evils? Yeah, maybe but if you don't live in a border state (and close to the line) you have no idea what is coming across from Mexico. Mexican military routinely come across to shoot at our Border Patrol, not to mention the coyotes, MS-13, pedophiles, and other hardened criminals. Ever hear the statistics of how many Middle Easterners come across our borders in sombreros trying to pass as Mexicans? Research it. It's not something that might happen, it IS happening. We're being invaded, folks, as we sit here.

    Is this Real ID card really the Bilderbergers, the Trilateral Commision, the One World Order finally coming to get us? I have been hearing about that crap for 20 years and I don't believe it for one minute. They won't so that for the same reason the Soviet Union didn't attack us years ago. Too many guns in the hands of American citizens. But there is no doubt in my mind that if we don't get our borders (or at least the people that are crossing them) controlled we're gonnna be in some deep doodoo pretty darned quick.
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    I don't buy any of this myself either. ATF, for mom's sake, still doesn't require the dealers to fax in, send in, or otherwise do anything with the 4473s but store them. It'd be VERY easy for them to require secure online scan or fax or any of that - but they never have.

    An ID card won't change that fact.

    Past that, I work with data for a real living (my moonlighting days at the gun store don't exactly pay the bills, rather the opposite), and everything that's been said above in comment to this paranoia is dead true. Everything can already be tracked - if they wanted to.

    The question, of course, is why. Trust me, we're not that interesting. I've seen too many people who didn't want to get the machine gun they'd wanted for years because they were afraid of the ATF guys, or would only buy guns private party lest someone kicked down their door, or carry illegally because they didn't want their name on the radar as owning a gun, or whatever.

    Pre-internet, I might believe it was possible - now, what are they going to do? Shut down the entirety of US net access, including satellite, for a week while they kick in doors? Turn off all the phones so we can't call overseas or use carrier pidgeons or shortwave?

    The feds aren't allowed to keep gun purchase records - so if there's a problem, blame your state. ID specifically forbids it. Move somewhere that protects your privacy if push comes to shove.

    I'm not going to live my life in fear of what might happen. I don't fear prosecution. I don't fear persecution. If it begins, I'll deal with it to the best of my ability. Until then, I'm going to enjoy my life and hope that for once they can do something about the immigration problem.

    The Feds have far more to worry about than my arsenal of many dozen firearms - or any of yours.
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Yawn Next topic please

  12. #12
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    I figure I'm not worried about it. I'm pretty sure I've been carrying a "national ID card" since 1964. It says DD Form 2 on it, and I've used it to buy firearms, get on military bases and in the PX, and at the airport. All a new card would do is make my walley fatter!!

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Oh to be sure there won't be an instant 1984 society.

    The point is though, in 2084, when the National Systematic Castration Act passes, you know to keep those "undesirables" from reproducing, they'll use the national ID base to enforce it.

    And here's something that is going to happen and soon: I'd bet you $1 that the second generation of these cards will have one of those RFID chips in it to store your information. Every 12 year old who knows how to hack even a little bit will know a lot of things about you they shouldn't, and anybody with the right hardware will be possibly be able to read and track that chip.

    The whole "illegal immigrant" angle is a red herring used to pass this off as benign legislation to the sheeple. Don't take the bait. It's a backroom deal passed by people who have no interest but being able to control you better.

    A card that shouldn't exist that will cost $700 million to implement fights illegal immigration the same way a state ballistics database fights crime.

    Hundreds of civil liberties groups, immigrant support groups and government associations oppose the Real ID Act, a piece of legislation that critics say would produce a de facto national ID card, cost states millions of dollars and punish undocumented immigrants.

    Yet despite widespread opposition to the bill, it passed through the House last week and is expected to easily pass through the Senate on Tuesday.

    The legislation is raising questions not only about privacy and costs but about the ways in which critical legislation gets passed in Congress.

    That's because lawmakers slipped the bill into a larger piece of legislation -- an $82 billion spending bill -- that authorizes funds for the Iraq war and tsunami relief, among other things, and is considered a must-pass piece of legislation.

    It's not the first time Congress has slipped contentious bills into larger legislation that is almost guaranteed to pass. In 2003, Congress augmented Patriot Act surveillance powers with wording slipped into the Intelligence Authorization Act, a bill that authorized funding for intelligence agencies.

    Critics, such as the American Civil Liberties Union, say lawmakers slipped the Real ID Act into the relatively uncontroversial spending bill in order to avoid a congressional debate over the ID measure.

    "The legislation was created in the backrooms of Congress without hearings and without any real understanding or thought about what was being created," said Barry Steinhardt, director of the ACLU's technology and liberty program.

    The Real ID Act, sponsored by House Judiciary Committee chairman James Sensenbrenner (R-Wisconsin), responds to recommendations made by the 9/11 Commission to make it more difficult for terrorists and undocumented immigrants to obtain legitimate identification documents and travel freely around the country. The bill also is designed to make it difficult for anyone to forge identification documents and use them for criminal purposes.

    A spokesman from Sensenbrenner's office did not return a call for comment in time for publication. But proponents of the legislation say they are simply implementing recommendations that the 9/11 Commission wanted.

    "The federal government should set standards for the issuance of birth certificates and sources of identification, such as driver's licenses," wrote the commissioners in their report. "Fraud in identification documents is no longer just a problem of theft. At many entry points to vulnerable facilities, including gates for boarding aircraft, sources of identification are the last opportunity to ensure that people are who they say they are and to check whether they are terrorists."

    Among other things, the legislation would force states to produce standardized, tamper-resistant driver's licenses that would include machine-readable, encoded data.

    States theoretically could choose not to comply with the standards, but residents of those states would not be able to use their license as identification to obtain federal benefits -- such as veteran's benefits or Social Security -- or to travel on airplanes.

    The legislation doesn't specify what data states must encode in the driver's license. The secretary of transportation and Department of Homeland Security secretary have authority to designate the data.

    The National Governors Association, the Council of State Governments and the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators are among those who say the law creates unnecessary bureaucracy for drivers and imposes hardship and undue cost on state offices.

    The legislation would require all drivers, including current license holders, to provide multiple documents to verify their identity before they could obtain a license or renew one. Drivers would have to provide four types of documentation, such as a photo ID, a birth certificate, proof that their Social Security number is legitimate and something that verifies the applicant's full home address, such as a utility bill. The law would then compel Department of Motor Vehicle employees to verify the documents against federal databases and store the documents and a digital photo of the card holder in a database.

    "What's the clerk in Denver supposed to do when someone provides a birth certificate from Angola?" asked Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "Are they supposed (to call Angola) to check the accuracy of that?"

    The Congressional Budget Office estimates that the cost for states to train workers and switch to the new licensing system would be $100 million over five years. But critics like the National Council of State Legislatures say it will more likely cost between $500 million and $700 million.

    Some critics call the legislation anti-immigration. Among other things, it would prohibit undocumented immigrants from obtaining a driver's license. Nearly a dozen states currently don't require proof of legal residency to obtain a driver's license, but this would change with the new law.

    Civil liberties groups are concerned about the privacy implications of the bill. Although the bill states that licenses must be machine-readable, it does not state the kind of technology to be used. Steinhardt said that officials would likely require states to embed a contactless RFID chip in licenses at some point, even if they didn't require this in the initial rollout of licenses.

    RFID chips can hold more data than magnetic stripes, but they can also allow someone with an RFID reader to collect information stored on a license from a distance without the license holder's knowledge.

    The machine-readable part of the license will contain most of the information printed on the license front -- such as the holder's name, birth date, gender and digital photograph. But the Department of Homeland Security could add more data, such as digital fingerprints.

    Proponents of the bill such as the nonprofit group NumbersUSA could not be reached for comment. But the group's members have said in the past that the bill successfully balances security and privacy interests.

    Among other things, the group argues that the bill does not create a national ID card because it allows individual states to issue the documents and does not force states to comply unless they want the documents to be accepted by federal agencies as proof of identity. In fact, they argue that the Real ID bill will make it unnecessary for the federal government to issue a national ID card.

    Steinhardt disagrees.

    "This is a national ID, there's no question about that," Steinhardt said. "It may be issued by the 50 states, but it's going to be the same documents, which will be backed up by a huge database."

    Steinhardt says a standardized license would allow the government and businesses to track people and would essentially create a single national database, since states would be required to open their driver's license databases to other states. He expressed concern that businesses would also want to read and collect the data on driver's licenses.

    "Everyone from 7-Eleven to the owner of your apartment building to a retailer and a bank are going to demand to see this document," Steinhardt said. "And they're going to be able to read all of the private data off of the machine-readable strip."

    Currently, some business such as bars and restaurants scan the magnetic strip on driver's licenses to collect data on patrons for marketing purposes. But the practice is not widespread.

    Steinhardt said that making the content and format of the data uniform would encourage retailers and others to harvest the information and create their own parallel database and sell the information to data brokers like ChoicePoint.

    Talk about a standardized driver's license arose last year after the 9/11 Commission Report revealed the ease with which the World Trade Center terrorists obtained legitimate driver's licenses and moved around the country unthwarted.

    This year Sensenbrenner introduced the legislation as a stand-alone bill, which passed in the House in February. In March lawmakers, anticipating trouble passing it through the Senate, slipped the act into the larger, must-pass spending bill. It's this bill that the Senate is expected to pass on Tuesday.

    "The deal's been cut," Steinhardt said. "I would be stunned beyond belief if it didn't pass at this point.",...%20n_tophead_1

    Welcome to Amerika. Big Brother is watching you comrade.

    Is everyone going to roll over and accept it when President Hillary bans civilian ownership of semiautomatic firearms and institutes state controlled health care? This National ID sure will help her a lot in enforcing such things.

  14. #14
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    Counterarguments against those that see no wrong with a national ID...

    Lady and Gentlemen...

    We are loosing our freedoms just a tiny itsy bit at a time. Not so much that you would take notice...because then you might actually try to do something about it. One day we'll wake up and realize that we have very little precious freedoms left. And we'll wonder where in the heck and HOW in the heck we lost it. aint gonna happen all at once. There will be no stormtroopers going house to house or mass panic or chaos or anything like it.

    Control of everything and everyone will come not by force, but by good folks that trust the government to do the right thing. Its not going to be forced on them..they are gonna ask for it !

    Wanna stop illegals form entering the country ? How about letting the government do the job that it is tasked to do ? Our border patrols are undermanned, understaffed and underfunded. If the U.S. was serious about the borders...they would simply shut them off. We could fence it off, and and apprehend ANYONE that trys to cross. We are the richest, strongest ,most powerful country in the world with a military second to none. Our police forces ALONE total more than the military of most countries in the world. We have the technology and the tools to do it right and do it well.

    What do we do instead ? We "force" everyone to get a national ID. We make it hard on them if they refuse to do so. We dont use physcial FORCE we simply make it too inconvient to not have one, so we use the force of inconvience which is a "force " that is just as powerful or more than physical force. Refuse to get the ID and all of a sudden you cant fly anywhere or cross the border or do certain things that you could do yestereday.

    We do it in the name of peace and safety.
    Look at the "Patriot Act". An act several hundred pages long that was passed a few weeks after some jets took out the World Trade Center. Most people that voted on it admitted to not even reading it. It was nessescary to fight terroism they were told. We have to do this in order to protect ourselves they were told. Anyone voting against it was accused of not wanting to protect the country from terrorism.They were even accused of being unpatriotic. So what we got, was a bill, that was voted into law... that basically usurps the Constitution of the US and all of the rights included in it if someone somewhere happpens to call you a "terrorist".
    Has anyone here even read it ? I have and I do not like what I have seen. It sets a dangerous precedent.

    It was a bill that was passed because good people expect those in government to do the right thing. There are those in government that could care less about what it right and what is wrong, they hold nothing dear and they have a dark agenda. It is this minority of folks that use those folks to their advantage to pass anything that they want to to further that agenda.

    Ill be the first to agree that it appears that we have made much progress in the way of gun rights...but have we ?

    We now have 38 states with licences to carry...a database of folks that are smart enoug to know that the cops cant be everywhere. These are not the clueless sheeple that never notice anything or expect free handouts form the government. The police are now enabled to carry their weapons pretty much anywhere anytime in the country. It had made it easier for me as a Deputy Sheriff to access info about you if you are a visiting officer. Now there is talk of a "national carry" which bascially says if you have a CCW from your home state you can carry anywhere. If that happens, we'll go from having a state database to a national database.
    Remember that these are "licenses." Any license to do anything can be revoked by either the local, state or federal government at any time for any reason they deem necessary.

    What used to be a right of protection is now a license for protection, yet many good folks fail to realize that when the give up a right for a license, they are giving someone somehwere the ability to tell them what they can or cant do. So I ask, are we REALLY making progress in the area of gunrights ?

    Is requiring EVERYONE in the US to register and have a NATIONAL ID mark because we are being flooded with illegal aliens because the government REFUSES to act the right thing to do ?

    As I stated before...its just another brick in the wall...

  15. #15
    Array QKShooter's Avatar
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    Dec 2004
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    QKShooter Addition.

    Talk about loss of freedom. Here is a perfect example of a true loss of freedom that already exists due to the inability of some people to be efficiently tracked.
    Parents that have to guard their little kids 24 hours a day due to untraceable sex offenders.
    Children that are already deathly afraid to smile and say "Hello" to somebody in the supermarket. Multiple offense sexual molesters and abusers getting jobs as summer camp counselors and day care providers.
    Employees with criminal record sheets 2 miles long getting jobs "cleaning" your hotel room.
    Doctors who lose their medical license being able to move to another state open up shop again. Dr. Swengo easily getting jobs in multiple hospitals and managing to kill (at least) 60 patients before being finally caught.
    People with known terrorist organization affiliations easily getting their trucking license to transport chemicals and materials capable of ending mass quantities of human life in a heartbeat.
    Personally...if some "flake" goes into one gun shop and buys 5 pounds of black powder and then goes into two more gun shops and buys 10 more pounds of black powder & then goes to 4 gun shops in a neighboring state and buys 30 more pounds of the stuff...then you had better believe that I SURE DO WANT somebody to know about it and ask him a few questions. And...if it turns out that the guy is sponsoring an upcoming muzzle loading convention then..."Absolutely No Problem!" but, if he was planning on blowing up something in the airport then I sure would like somebody of authority to know about it before I fly down to visit Grandma in Sunny Florida.
    So with ANY new system...Is there a potential for abuse? Sure...Yep!...And...You Bet! And that's why we have the chance to toss all of Congress out and elect a new POTUS ever 4 years...Not to mention a nation "Chock Full" of gosh awful hungry lawyers that will pick up on that specific abuse and fling it into the courtroom and then toss it right up to the Supreme Court and back again. If that happens then no matter How Much federal money was spent on the program it will either "get fixed" or probably go the way of "Prohibition."
    Also: I hate to break the news to you but the United States Government is not really too concerned about you...The Average Law Abiding Citizen and your Bad A$$ Assault Rifle. BECAUSE it's really only Bad A$$ to you and it's really not at all very "bad" anymore to the United States Military at all. They are already and forever 10 or 15 years ahead in serious "R&D" than what we are seeing on the TV at any present time.
    And an "Evil Black Rifle" with a Streamlight and some tactical "add on" is really not going to do a whole lot to stop a Highly Trained and Equipped US Military SpecOps Team from taking your "Precious Bootie" any time they want to...if that is what they honestly had any volition, desire, or reason to do.
    They'll launch a few percussion & Flash Bangs into your house at the same time it's filling up with CS Gas & a Black Chopper is dropping five guys on your roof while another 16 are coming through every window and door with Night Vision & they won't care all that much what sort of rifle or 12 gauge shotgun you have on hand. I can rather envision a scenario where the help of armed US citizens would be needed to help combat an outside threat.
    The reality of our recent situation is that the United States was attacked by Outside Extreme Fundamentalists who absolutely despise America and all Americans and would like nothing better than to see all innocent American men, women, & children dead in the streets.
    That is where I hope and pray that we are focusing our efforts & I trust that our basic integrity and inherent love of freedom will put a quick end to any minor or major idiosyncratic violations and infractions of our individual rights should any occur due to a REAL ID type system.
    I totally agree with Bumper that we No Longer can afford the past luxury of Not Knowing and Not Caring about who is plotting against us inside the borders of the United States.
    And By The Way...I'll send everybody on the forum enough cash to buy themselves a cheap six pack of beer if Hillary Clinton gets elected President Of the United States in the next presidential.
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I actually see a trend toward the reversal of earlier & stricter firearms restrictions.
    And....Now that a legal precedent has been set for an interstate carry by LEO I can see a real possibility of that opening the door for national carry for LTC citizens. I think that a valid "Equal Rights Under The Law" argument can now be put into play.
    So...I'm going to continue to not get all "spazzed out" about a National ID Card until I start hearing about REAL Cases of actual abuse of the system.
    If that happens then I'll bend my knee and I'll say "Fellow Forum Members...I Was Wrong & You Were Right"
    My only hope will be that I get the chance to apologize before I get hauled off to the Government Containment Facility For Disarmed American Citizens...or better yet...I'll see ya there!
    Be sure to wear nametags so I'll recognize you'all & we'll dig ourselves a secret escape tunnel together.
    Last edited by QKShooter; May 13th, 2005 at 12:48 PM.
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