Kicked out of Barnes & Noble!
This is a discussion on Kicked out of Barnes & Noble! within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by unrequited
Sgt. Mucci: "Can I have your ID?"
me:"No. I don't see how that's relevant to our discussion."
Sgt. Mucci: "What's your ...
July 21st, 2007 12:39 PM
Not putting all the blame on you, but not being cooperative here shows your attitude. I would be annoyed myself, but not identifying yourself when a cop asks, is a good way to escalate the situation.
Originally Posted by unrequited
July 21st, 2007 12:43 PM
that's just it, the store didn't "evict" him. the management just asked the LEO's to make sure he was legal. the LEO's took it upon themselves to abuse power.
Originally Posted by randytulsa2
i'd take this up with their department chief.
kudos to you for handling it respectfully.
whoever posted the video of the kid getting tazered, that's how NOT to handle a situation with the police. if you are being arrested, you do not flee, and you do not resist. it's probably the dumbest move you can make. act like a gentlemen, and handle it in court or in a discussion with their dept chief.
War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill
July 21st, 2007 01:14 PM
As an EX LEO I was and still am somewhat amused when a LEO is enforcing his own version of the law and becomes unsure if he/she is questioned. They have a tendency to try to find other “laws” to enforce so they won’t “lose face” at least in their own mind.
You will get arrested and if you win in court the LEO blames it on the Judge, not his/her mishandling of the complaint. But he/she can still smile because you still went to jail and that makes you the loser in their mind.
We used to call it the Wyatt Earp syndrome, “This is my town and I’m the law”. “You will respect me even if I’m wrong,” I’m not sure what it is called today.
An attorney told me there are three truths, Your's, the Legal truth and the absolute truth, which is never known
July 21st, 2007 01:17 PM
Considering all aspects of the story, and considering the entire incident was probably watched by quite a few customers and store employees. The two LEO's probably shared the situation with some of their buddies on the shift later. With all these witnesses, what do you think this incident did to their perception of people of CCW and/or OC? Ultimately do you think they went home with a better understanding and pro-gun or do you think the incident raised these peoples alarm level? The people who experienced this, and their friends/family they tell it to are all voters. In other words do we now have more allies or more anti's?
Gain a 2A vote, take a fence-sitter shooting.
July 21st, 2007 01:46 PM
As an insight because most of the people posting aren't from VA. B&N is usually a stop after a dinner for me, and in VA you MUST OC in places which serve alcohol, so I'm usually OC for the day. I do CC if I have no intention of going to a place with alcohol during the day, but last night wasn't one of those days. This isn't a CC/OC debate, this is a got called for "guy with a gun" which is legal. If I had printed CC'ing it would have been the same situation, only I'd be required to show CHP + ID.
As for not showing ID or providing my full name, both were and are irrelevant to establish that I was a peaceable law-abiding citizen which had committed no crime and was NEVER under the suspicion of which. Therefore, there was no requirement to ever show ID.
They blatantly lied about management's request to forcibly remove me (remove me under threat of "something very bad").
July 21st, 2007 02:03 PM
Are you proud that you were not cooperative with LEO? Perhaps you thought it was irrelevant. That does not make it so. Why were you trying to hide your full name? Why were you trying to obstruct the LEOs by not providing ID? That immediately raised a flag to the officers. Actions such as you describeded are contrary to the goal of portraying gun carriers as polite and responsible people.
Originally Posted by unrequited
From your story, the LEOs were extremely tolerant of your actions.
July 21st, 2007 02:12 PM
They were extremely tolerant because they were required to by law. THey don't have to agree with the laws they enforce just as I don't have to agree with the ones I have to abide by.
Originally Posted by SelfDefense
I already established I was not arrested under suspicion of committing a crime, nor was I being detained for investigation of such, so I knew they were just harassing me because I was OC'ing in a CHAIR for 1.5 hours after interacting peaceably with 8 or so employees. If you tell me one of them called when I had first entered and it took APD 1.5 hours to respond to the call then that'd be even more reason to carry there. If you tell me I had no problem with the employees and instead it was one parent who was probably uninformed about the law, then I say talk to me, find out that I wasn't doing anything illegal, and then MOVE ON and talk to the complainer explaining it's legal. Since it wasn't against store policy and hasn't been in the times I've been there before, that's where it should have ended... not my removal under threat of "something very bad" without the express permission of the management.
July 21st, 2007 02:12 PM
I was welcomed back to the store, and AGAIN when I called her at 2am. The police lied to me, and then wouldn't address the lie when I caught them on it with the manager present.
Stephanie: "No, and in fact, I think I remember that you've been here before, and welcome you back, I just wanted to make sure everything was okay."
me: "Did you ask these officers to remove me from the building?"
Stephanie: "No, I called the officers and asked them to make sure everything was legal and alright and do whatever they had to do."
me: "So you didn't ask them to tell me to leave?"
Stephanie: "No, I just wanted to make sure everything was okay."
July 21st, 2007 02:35 PM
I am not saying that you were not harrassed, only that you were not cooperative. In fact, it was a very provocative response when asked your name you responded with an incomplete answer and continued with asking the officer his name.
It is also not clear the officers lied. It is likely that the store employee conversed with a dispatcher, not the officers.
In any event, as with the case of Chet, there are better ways to handle the situation. I think you did relatively well considering the circumstances.
Last edited by SelfDefense; July 21st, 2007 at 02:51 PM.
Reason: spelling; punctuation
July 21st, 2007 02:37 PM
Both parties probably did not do EVERYthing the proper way. Yes carrying open may be legal and you may have done it many times in the same place before, but given the hoopla and kids/families in there...if you have a CCW, pull your shirt over it, this once. Part of responsibly carrying a firearm....OC or CC is discretion and judgment. The fact of the matter is 95% of people are nervous about guns because they do not understand them...you have to pick your battles. If you handled this as calmly as you did with no hostile overtones, congrats. Although, given the tone of your post, and needing a cooling off period I doubt you were as cordial as you think. The LEO probably did not think you would question their story...and gambled a little bit. As an LEO I am sure they do whatever "Jedi mind tricks" they can to control a situation, where another gun is involved. When you called their hand they were embarassed...in front of other people and they were not prepared to respond. That is why they froze up. They were hoping you would politely understand and just disarm...taking the gun out of the equation. I am not denying your right to carry open but it needs to be used in moderation. I live next door in WV, where open is legal, "as long as the person is on foot and engaged in legal activity". I have a CCW, and use it because, "discretion is the better part of valor." Unfortunately the "crowd" probably left with a belief that you were a crazy gun nut that the police had to come in and remove, regardless of your polite interaction with management. This only strengthens the antis and the uneducated "nervous" types beliefs that we are crazy for thinking we need to carry a gun. It was a difficult situation for all and I do commend you for not buckling and getting both sides of the story. Who knows maybe the next guy/gal this happens to, the LEO will not try and float some BS.
Friends don't let friends be MALL NINJAS.
I am just as nice as anyone lets me be and can be just as mean as anyone makes me. - Quoted from Terryger, New member to our forum.
July 21st, 2007 03:15 PM
Not a Newbie, but a Lurker
I've been a member of this forum for well over a year and I've learned so much from so many of you.
I've never felt that I had much to add to any of the conversations held on this forum, until now.
In this case we have a citizen whose right to keep and bear arms is not only God-given, not only protected by our Constitution, but also protected by the laws of his own state, who is seemingly harassed by police officers.
I think everyone understands the concept of there being several sides to every story, but I want to remind everyone of this:
The police and LEO community work for us.
I have the expectation that people who are hired and trained for a job have a certain level of competency. I guess my point is that if the story is more or less honestly represented here, then the officers just kind of made up a bogus story about what the store manager had requested. In my profession (I'm aregistered Nurse, working in the psychiatric area, recovering right now from a broken leg received during a pastient restraint, thank you very much) if you lie and cover up facts you can get dragged in front of the Board of Nursing and receive disciplinary action.
My expectation of the police and the LEO community is that they enforce the law when they arrive. Nothing more and nothing less. I think sometimes we get more in the form of bravery and heroism, but in this case it sounds like we got less.
Sorry if I rambled, might be the residual effects of the percocet,
July 21st, 2007 03:49 PM
After the manager told you she had no problem with you, why didn't you go get your gun and walk back in to the store? That would have shown those bullies!! :-)
July 21st, 2007 03:56 PM
I don't know the reason for posting this whole story here, since you're doing exactly nothing to resolve this situation.
If you feel you were treated unfairly, then you need to be speaking to the higher-ups of the officers, not a bunch of internet commandos.
I'll take a .45 and a large side of JHPs, please.
July 21st, 2007 04:25 PM
If nothing else, others can learn about situations that occur in real life, taking to heart the issues at hand and running the scenarios through a discussion to benefit everyone. Discussing here won't necessarily do a thing to alter the agency's position. Simply, this is the main benefit of any discussion board.
Originally Posted by vanilla_gorilla
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
July 21st, 2007 04:28 PM
Totally agree with Vanilla_Gorilla. I'd do something about this. And if you do, post it here, I'd like to see if it goes anywhere.
Originally Posted by vanilla_gorilla
To throw my two cents into the argument... private citizens should not be expected to hold the same degree of professionalism as a LEO who is trained and certified to be professional. I'm not saying private citizens can be an ass but LEO's have gained too much authority and discretion in our modern society. LEO's should be more accountable.
If this bothers you, unrequited, and it would me in your situation, please follow this up. Silence is consent.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
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