This is a discussion on Kicked out of Barnes & Noble! within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by unrequited Therefore, there was no requirement to ever show ID. And yet you asked them for their ID! That seems just as ...
... and if they did do less, unrequited turned out to be a nut and a shooting did occur inside the store no doubt would there be a thread here talking about how the LEO's could not handle the simple task of unarming one man.
Quite frankly I am getting sick and tired of the Monday morning quarterbacking going on from people who know little more about police work than what the learned from watching TV.
Nothing wrong was done by either party, and as pointed out earlier there are three sides to every story.
I'll refrain from taking this situation apart bit by bit as I am sure it will shut the thread down. I will put the effort in and few will see it. Maybe I will anyway...
"Just blame Sixto"
Just wanting to hear what everyone thinks.
I would say take it up the line IF your account is totally accurate and you're not leaving anything out. I personally feel you should at least follow up, but I'm not in your shoes. I'm also not going to go any further into my reasonings or debate it further as I don't want to get booted for turning this into an "us vs. them" thread. So...you have my answer and my support(for whatever it's worth).
-The Mist (2007)"My God David, We're a Civilized society."
"Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
It is ironic, considering that one sub plot of book 5 was Dolores Umbridge demanding the students be helpless, that you were ordered to disarm at Harry Potter night at B&N.
What would the cops have done if it was a VCDL night out at B&N? Say 50 or so VCDL members and families all a minglin' with the other Potter-heads?
Quite an amazing happening.One thing I have noticed after reading all the above post is there seems to be a commonality with all you LEO members.Why do you take the position that he was presenting an attitude by not offering his last name or ID? Does this threaten your position as an officer of the law? Does his non compliance take your authority to task? If the local police saw no reason to detain or arrest the man then I do not see the justification for you calling him out as being an "A__ or having an attitude.Trust me, I have the utmost respect for law enforcement.It is a thankless job which most folks would never want to do.However, It does not give the man (or woman) with the badge to create a situation just in order to save face.I have witnessed this type of behavior on numerous occasions with our local PD and S.O.Perhaps I am a bit jaded since my recent experience.Set me straight if I appear to be out of line here......Chris
All I've got to say is that I just left Barnes and Noble after buying two copies of Harry Potter so my wife and I can read it at the same time. I walked into the store made the purchase (also a gun magazine: Combat Tactics by SureFire) and walked out. I was carrying a Smith M642 in my front pocket the whole time. Nobody said a word because nobody knew. I live in one of the most liberal parts of the State of Florida. Miami-Dade County goes Democrat every national election. Thank the Lord for State pre-emption laws.
I would have to point out that you were less than cooperative with the cops and nothing gets a cop's ire up faster than any perception that he is not in control 100% of any situation. He will act to get and maintain control. There he was, in danger of losing control to a man with a firearm on his hip in a room full of women and children. I know you're not a threat. He doesn't. Remember that all cops today are products of the public schools and that antigun antifreedom agenda.
To a lesser degree this is also how I act in my inner city classroom. When I have an unruly kid acting up outside my doorway causing trouble, I have to step out and take control. I'm the only teacher in the vicinity capable of doing so. I work in a very tough area. We've got gangstas coming out of our ears over there. If I back down I risk a lot more than some might think. I do find I can often talk the situation from going to RED with a little humor and some command bearing. I never raise my voice. Ever. That's weakness. But I never lose control. It's like a dog smelling fear. If I did my life wouldn't be worth a plug nickel. Look at the sitation from the other side of the badge. I think we can all agree there were better ways to handle the situation.
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
unrequited, you handled that situation much better than I believe I would have. Kudos to you sir. You have a very cool head. You should be proud.
Unless they were detaining him or arresting him, what they had was called a "consensual encounter." He wasn't obligated to show ID, CWP or anything else. In fact, he wasn't obligated to answer *any* questions other than perhaps his name (depending on local laws).
As to the poster chastising him for not showing ID then asking the officers for theirs... the difference is that *they* are wearing a uniform, *they* are required to identify themselves. He is not.
I'm not sure I can express how dismayed I am every time I read these posts where people attack the victim for the crime of exercising his rights. On a forum where you'd expect to find mostly conservatives who support the Constitution and Bill of Rights, we instead find many who chastise people for exercising their rights by using little cliches like "discretion is the better part of valor," or by accusing them of bearing fault for causing or escalating the police abuse of power.
To recap, what did the OP do to force the LEOs to lie? If the story is true and the manager simply wanted to verify it was legal, the officers never even had to speak to him.
Is he acting suspicious? Has he threatened anyone? Has he shoplifted, trespassed, broken any law?
If not, then the simple solution to the "problem" was for the LEO to inform the manager that at this point, what he has done is legal. If, though, she feels uncomfortable with him there or would like him to leave, then she has the right to ask him to do so, or they will ask him on her behalf. If he refuses, then we have a different story.
Based on the information we have based only on this thread, the OP did nothing wrong, and those blaming him and defending LEO are the same who do it whenever a similar situation arises.
War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill
I have gotten good at quickly changing from concealed to open and back again as I enter and leave alcohol serving restaurants in Virginia, but completely understand unrequited's reason for open carrying that night. I applaud his audacity in knowing his rights and the law as it applied to him. I would love to have been able to measure his adrenaline level during his encounter.
Nevertheless, I would have been conceal carrying my firearm and open carrying my wand.
maybe the recent mass casualties at VT has Virginians "paranoid" and they react strongly to the sight of any non LEO walking about with a gun in plain sight. Just because we have the right to carry does not mean we should shove it into LEO's faces when they are responding to calls from some hysterical anti. They are only doing their job. It isn't us vs. them. If some feel that strongly about LEO nazi tactics, step up, apply, get the job, work long odd hours for pennies, miss important family time, watch good friends killed in the line of duty, and maybe when the inevitable "crazy with a gun" call comes out....you will handle it better
You may not like cops but we are out there trying and we really don't want to go to B&N and bust a legally carrying CCW. You can have whatever opinion or veiwpoint you want on the 2nd ammendment but like it or not, any questions or requests from an LEO that are pertinent during the course of an investigation need to be answered.
We ratchet up, because in our line of work an attitude+not willingly giving information (usually)=confrontation with bad guy. This can be dangerous, you don't carry a handgun and go out and hunt "bad guys", we do. If you're a good guy then don't have an attitude and act like a bad guy. Most of us LEO members are all for CCW, I am wholeheartedly.
An attitude does not threaten my position at all, and non-compliance does not take my authority to task, it just raises my "now I'm curious" flag. I have quite a few years on the job and I can tell you from experience that a majority of good arrests stem from an "attitude" or evasiveness because the Officer will now have a very good, court upheld reason to detain you. For God's sake, you have an open carry gun on, just be a gentleman.
I respect your opinion. This is mine.
Last edited by Team American; July 21st, 2007 at 11:14 PM. Reason: language..
Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.