Kicked out of Barnes & Noble! - Page 5

Kicked out of Barnes & Noble!

This is a discussion on Kicked out of Barnes & Noble! within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by semperfi.45 You may not like cops but we are out there trying and we really don't want to go to B&N and ...

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Thread: Kicked out of Barnes & Noble!

  1. #61
    Member Array jackofspades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semperfi.45 View Post
    You may not like cops but we are out there trying and we really don't want to go to B&N and bust a legally carrying CCW. You can have whatever opinion or veiwpoint you want on the 2nd ammendment but like it or not, any questions or requests from an LEO that are pertinent during the course of an investigation need to be answered.
    Just out of curiosity (and any of our friendly LEOs can answer this, its not solely directed at Semperfi.45).

    If its already been established that there were no laws broken, and -presumably- the LEOs knew that before initiating contact (its no secret that VA is a OC legal state). How is getting the last name of a honest, law-abiding, citizen a pertinent question?

    I ask, because a few posters have made it seem like the OP was in the wrong for not providing them his last name. Which, its my understanding, that since he was neither being arrested or detained, he is under no obligation to provide it. (I could be wrong, I am neither a LEO, nor a Lawyer-just arm chair quarterbacking like everyone else).


  2. #62
    Member Array unrequited's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackofspades View Post
    I ask, because a few posters have made it seem like the OP was in the wrong for not providing them his last name. Which, its my understanding, that since he was neither being arrested or detained, he is under no obligation to provide it. (I could be wrong, I am neither a LEO, nor a Lawyer-just arm chair quarterbacking like everyone else).
    Absolutely correct, at least in VA. Some states require you to give ID upon request.

    http://www.flexyourrights.org/freque...d_questions#07

  3. #63
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    We as a Constitutional Republic imbue our law enforcement officers with something termed "Discretionary Powers." That means we give them wide latitude to carry out their duties until they are shown to be no longer trustworthy either (usually) by the individual or collectively (BATFE?). This includes a rather routine identity check, if only to match the person to a CCW document. This entire thread is the primary reason to carry concealed. ALL of this could have been avoided by concealment. Rub the noses of the sheep in their own foolishness and they'll stampede over top you out of fear. Groupthink at it's worst. WE are the sheepdogs. It's our duty to protect the flock, even if they at times despise us for our strength and fortitude.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  4. #64
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    I would suggest the OP learn the laws regarding recording a conversation with out 1 parties consent. Some states it is illegal to do so.
    LE deal with scum day in and day out. People playing games, avoiding answering questions and the like raises suspicion. If you wish to open carry, go for it where legal. But expect some extra attention from LE and the public, because most people are not familiar with gun laws.
    Even LE cannot know all the laws, heck lawyers get paid big money to research laws and opinions.
    those here that hold a grudge against LE, ned to understand, it isn't the easiest job. don't believe me? find a reserve program to work for .
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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  5. #65
    Member Array jackofspades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    Even LE cannot know all the laws, heck lawyers get paid big money to research laws and opinions.
    those here that hold a grudge against LE, ned to understand, it isn't the easiest job. don't believe me? find a reserve program to work for .
    I don't hold a grudge against LE, I'm fully aware that they have probably one of the least-appreciated and toughest jobs out there. Its not a job I could do, but I'm glad there are folks that can do it.

    I don't expect them to know all the laws - we have too many for that to be realistic, but, I think its safe to assume, at least in this case, that the LEOs knew the applicable laws, since they didn't respond to the call by having SWAT fly in through the windows and pull Unrequited out by his toes. And they did inform him that he wasn't breaking any laws.

    I think the situation could have been handled better by the LEOs, in particular, they had no reason to lie about the manager asking them to remove him from the store.

    Wouldn't it have just been easier for the Officer to make the initial contact something like this:

    "Sir, management has had a few complaints about your sidearm. Since there are more children then normal here tonight, would you mind either concealing, assuming you have a permit, or leaving your weapon in the car?"

  6. #66
    Member Array unrequited's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    I would suggest the OP learn the laws regarding recording a conversation with out 1 parties consent. Some states it is illegal to do so.
    I would suggest you learn the law regarding VA. It's a 1-party consent state... I'm the one party.

    Also to "semperfi.45":
    If they had reasonable suspicion to demand an ID (asian with gun just harassed a customer or threatened/brandished in the store) then of course I'd have to surrender and would comply to prove my identity... but then I would have been told that when I asked if I was being arrested or being detained. Since I had already established it was neither, I knew they were just harassing me. I don't need and will not give ID to cops who are harrassing me for no reason other than that I'm a peaceable law-abiding citizen carrying a gun legally. Cops only have the authority vested in them by the laws of the state & country you live in, as well as the authority you give up to them in lieu of your personal civil rights. I don't question their authority concerning the state, I will not trade one ounce of my personal liberty for their increased authority over me in the guise of their safety or mine...

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -- NOT Benjamin Franklin

    I can't believe you as a corp member would say differently, but perhaps you took a different oath than the rest:

    "I, (state your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

    ...just in case you missed that part, read the 4th Amendment...

  7. #67
    Lead Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by unrequited View Post
    I would suggest you learn the law regarding VA. It's a 1-party consent state... I'm the one party.

    ..
    Since I do not live in VA, and am not planning on moving there, I see no point in me learning VA law. I was attempting to help you be sure you were totally legal.
    Maybe I am wrong , but your posts seem to come across as rather sharp and arrogant.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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  8. #68
    Member Array sdr7871's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    Maybe I am wrong , but your posts seem to come across as rather sharp and arrogant.
    That seems rather harsh.From what I can gather he is simply conveying his deep felt desire for freedom from wrongful interrogation. He was within state and local laws.He never came off as being uncooperative.He simply wanted an answer to his questions and was given B.S. by an authoritarian that was clearly in the wrong. Where does that play into sharp and arrogant?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdr7871 View Post
    That seems rather harsh.From what I can gather he is simply conveying his deep felt desire for freedom from wrongful interrogation. He was within state and local laws.He never came off as being uncooperative.He simply wanted an answer to his questions and was given B.S. by an authoritarian that was clearly in the wrong. Where does that play into sharp and arrogant?
    I was referring (mostly) to his reply to my post. I have no problem with OC in general, but if you act anything less than polite and respectful to anyone (including LE) it makes all gun owners look bad.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  10. #70
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    Officers aren't paid to enforce their personal beliefs. I can understand wanting to talk to you outside, but once it was established that you weren't breaking the law they should have gone away.

    The manager apparently didn't ask that you be disarmed, that was their idea... they were enforcing their personal belief instead of the law. I'd file a complaint.

    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    I was referring (mostly) to his reply to my post. I have no problem with OC in general, but if you act anything less than polite and respectful to anyone (including LE) it makes all gun owners look bad.
    I think this officer made cops look bad. Asking for identification when it was clear no law was violated strikes me as wrong. LEOs shouldn't be allowed to ask random passerby to ID themselves, and since the OP wasn't being detained or arrested I fell he was perfectly justified in refusing their request. Had he complained it wold have become an unjustifiable fishing expedition for warrants.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

  11. #71
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    unrequited...

    Keep fighting the good fight.

    File a complaint with the officer's IAB or equivalent for trying to bully you around the way they did - then file a suit against every one liable.

    I think that LE should have gotten the duty manager to tell you to step outside and never to return to the store with a firearm again, then they would have been in the right to ask you out if you did not comply with the manager's request - not before.

    You were breaking no laws yet you are treated like a criminal. That is why we need to do every legal thing we can to stop this abuse of power.

  12. #72
    Member Array unrequited's Avatar
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    One of my friends passed this along to me, hopefully it'll persuade others concerning the ID issue:
    http://papersplease.org/id.html

    Thanks for the kind words to all who are giving them. I appreciate it greatly.

  13. #73
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    When we, as free American citizens are minding our own business, hurting no one and breaking no laws, are we to expect "Your papers, please?" It's not about having nothing to hide - it's about being free.
    Check out the Free State Project

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  14. #74
    Member Array vanilla_gorilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unrequited View Post
    I would suggest you learn the law regarding VA. It's a 1-party consent state... I'm the one party.

    Also to "semperfi.45":
    If they had reasonable suspicion to demand an ID (asian with gun just harassed a customer or threatened/brandished in the store) then of course I'd have to surrender and would comply to prove my identity... but then I would have been told that when I asked if I was being arrested or being detained. Since I had already established it was neither, I knew they were just harassing me. I don't need and will not give ID to cops who are harrassing me for no reason other than that I'm a peaceable law-abiding citizen carrying a gun legally. Cops only have the authority vested in them by the laws of the state & country you live in, as well as the authority you give up to them in lieu of your personal civil rights. I don't question their authority concerning the state, I will not trade one ounce of my personal liberty for their increased authority over me in the guise of their safety or mine...

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -- NOT Benjamin Franklin

    I can't believe you as a corp member would say differently, but perhaps you took a different oath than the rest:

    "I, (state your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

    ...just in case you missed that part, read the 4th Amendment...

    I think I'm starting to see that the officer was likely a reflection of your own attitude.
    I'll take a .45 and a large side of JHPs, please.

  15. #75
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unrequited View Post
    I can't believe you as a corp member would say differently, but perhaps you took a different oath than the rest:

    "I, (state your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

    ...just in case you missed that part, read the 4th Amendment...
    Ahh....yes, read the Fourth Amendment. Good point. Now go ahead and read the Supreme Court's Terry v. Ohio which details when a person is "seized" for purposes of the Fourth Amendment. There is plenty of good reading on how amendments like the Fourth apply to LEO contact with the public. I am going to venture a guess and say that a Supreme Court Justice knows a little bit more than you about interpretation of the law.

    If you only get one thing right in this thread make it this - I am not a corp member, I am a Marine. By that statement I am sure it is something you wouldn't understand, but you felt the need to go there to try and inflame me.

    vanilla_gorilla has this thread pegged when he says "I think I'm starting to see that the officer was likely a reflection of your own attitude".

    As stated before this all could have been avoided by carrying concealed. IMO I don't like open carry and I feel that all carry should be concealed. I can carry concealed in my state but in no uncertain terms may I carry open unless in uniform.

    I wish you luck in pursuing your freedom to carry and your pursuit of justice like a zealot. Consider the rights that you enjoy and be mature about your approach, for you are a reflection of others that carry. Consider that your sharp attitude may reflect poorly on the position that you are trying to defend and influence people to take an opposite stance.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

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