National Recoprocity Act of 2017 - Page 2

National Recoprocity Act of 2017

This is a discussion on National Recoprocity Act of 2017 within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; The way it seems to be worded now is pretty good. It is not a national permit. It says all other states must recognize each ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    The way it seems to be worded now is pretty good. It is not a national permit. It says all other states must recognize each other's permit and says that residents have a right to get a permit from a different state that shall also be honored, which is certainly a necessary work around the may, er, no, issue states.


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    A Kentucky CC permit recognized in (gulp!)...Illinois? Talk about a late Christmas present!
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    The way it seems to be worded now is pretty good. It is not a national permit. It says all other states must recognize each other's permit and says that residents have a right to get a permit from a different state that shall also be honored, which is certainly a necessary work around the may, er, no, issue states.


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    It also says that the out-of-State carrier, must abide by the laws of the visiting State.

    Forcing States like CA, MD, IL to Honor other State permits will cause them to 1) file suit in Federal Court, 2) pass new restrictive legislation on both the visitor and the resident. 3) The GFSZA.

    1) Suing the federal Government will fast track the suit to the Supreme Court. With a Trump SC, we will have a 5-4 Majority. That is very poor odds and there is less than no guarantee that they will rule this law Constitutional.
    If the SC rules it Unconstitutional then this issue will be dead forever.

    2) These Democrat run States will have no problems passing more restrictive laws to combat Nation Reciprocity.

    3) If the Federal Government is going to pass Legislation forcing States to Honor other State Permits, then they better clean their own house first. As of right now it is a felony under the GFSZA to carry on public land within 1000 feet of a school without a State Issued permit. Yet, they are demanding Nation Reciprocity while at the same time making it Illegal within 1000 feet of a school. Do you know how impossible it can be to stay 1000 feet away from a school when driving in a large city? Damn near impossible. ...and you can bet your sweet ass that States like CA, NJ, NY, MD, will pass, if not already on the books, a GFSZA for non-permit holders of their own.

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  5. #19
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    Agreed Steve! (Post #30, above^) It's gonna' be a rat's nest string ball for sure! That's what always concerns me about wide-sweeping (national) reciprocity. Current Kentucky gun laws (in general) & carry laws (specifically) suit me fine right now. IMHO, these nationwide measures invite both scrutiny & input from OTHER states. That could mean "watering-down my home bourbon", and THAT may not be WORTH trading for the right to conceal in states that...I don't wanna' visit ANYway!
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  6. #20
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    National Recoprocity Act of 2017

    While national reciprocity may sound good on the surface, I too worry about restrictions put in place by some of the more anti states for those who carry there. And what judicial decisions could arise out of it as a result?

    I can easily understand why some of you in more restrictive states would be in favor of such a plan, but for those of us who are more fortunate in where we live regarding 2A, I don't want any legislative or judicial backsliding against us. As they say, the devil is in the details. I worry about those details.

  7. #21
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    Excellent points. With respect to the pendulum and the judicial branch....that argument would seem to favor NOT doing National Reciprocity to give a more conservative court a chance to rule on the overall 2A issue again. I don't believe it's gone Foucault.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmf552 View Post
    I have always believed in that pendulum model also. My one counterpoint is that IMHO Trump took the pendulum off-axis. He was opposed by the left and the right and to some extent still is, even though now he is getting lip-service. I think to a lesser extend Sanders on the other side was off-axis and he might have had a better chance except that "the fix was in."

    So the question is, "What direction has the pendulum actually gone this time and what direction might it go next time?" I think the new pendulum has a 360-degree pivot point that is more like a Foucault pendulum, that traces a star pattern as the Earth turns beneath it. It remains to be seen which direction we have really swung this time and what the new swing will be.

    Also, I would not underestimate the effect that this pendulum swing will have on the courts for decades to come. The pendulum swings much more slowly in the Judicial Branch.
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  8. #22
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    Only way for NJ residents........Maybe / not really clear to me.......but........bring it on !!!

    In America, if you have a concealed carry permit, that doesn’t always mean you can carry the gun in any state.
    Liberals across America have passed outrageous laws which limit our 2nd Amendment freedoms. If you’re legally able to carry a gun in one state, shouldn’t you be able to carry it in all?

    Now, on the first day of the new Congress, Republicans are ready to repeal the efforts of Obama and anti-gun liberals. Now, national concealed carry reciprocity legislation has been introduced by Rep. Richard Hudson (R-NC).

    This would be a huge victory for gun owners, and is a bill that President elect Trump would sign into law!

    Republican Rep. Richard Hudson (N.C.) on Tuesday introduced a bill that would require states to recognize each other’s gun carry permits.

    The Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017 would address the patchwork nature of the country’s gun carry laws.


    Read more: http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/c...#ixzz4UpARDfWf

  9. #23
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    NJGF.........correspondence ....disclaimer, I am not John......ok...read it !!!!

    Everyone the following is full detail of my email messages and replies to and from Congressman Hudson’s office.

    Note: other than personal info of mine in which I removed - his office's replies to me are WORD for WORD. I still feel it leaves the door open, but I don't think NJ will see his bill the way he see's his bill... Enjoy the read...............and feel free to add any thoughts.......................

    (me) Dec 6th 2016 8:36am

    Dear Congressman Hudson

    I'm messaging you about the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017.
    Love your Idea, however I have a few questions. Me along with NJSARF group and the others ask that you add a provision in the new bill that will cover Non-Resident Carry Permits . We ask this Because NJ has unconstitutional laws that in a way keep NJ residents from getting a permit, in NJ you can apply, and you could get one, but the Admin Code keeps 99.97% of NJ residents from being issued one, Now NJ resident normally get N.H. and Utah Non-resident Permits that will allow us to carry in 33 states, but since NJ does not have a reciprocity agreement with ANY state we can't carry in NJ. But your bill, will allow anyone who has a carry permit from their home state to carry in all 50 states and DC. But not NJ residents. Leaving NJ residents at risk, as you will have tons of people that travel come to our state armed, but our own residents will not be. So you Bill Needs to include, that All Non-residents Permits that are issued with a photo on the ID, will be also honored in any state. Under the 14thAmendment. (The amendment addresses citizenship rights and equal protection of the laws) thanks please get back to me....

    I also mailed a letter to his DC office that was a lot long and more detailed.

    (Hudson) Dec. 13th 2016 10:48 a,

    Hey, John –

    Thanks for your note. Under the bill I plan to introduce next month, a non-resident concealed carry permit will qualify. Hope this addresses your concerns.

    Thanks again, Richard

    (me) Dec. 13th 2016 10:55 am

    Dear Congressman Hudson

    Thank you for your reply, everyone in NJ has been debating about your bill, as many of us believe the wording would NOT help NJ residents with Non-Resident carry permits. But based on what you just messaged me, your bill will 100% include non-resident permits, right?

    (Hudson) Dec. 13th 2016 11:47 am

    Hey, John –

    That's correct - it will include non-resident permits.

    Thanks again, Richard

    (me) Dec. 14th 2016 3:03 pm

    Dear Congressman Hudson and or his office,

    I am so sorry to bother you again; however I posted on the NJ2A community page on what you told me. However after 125 likes and comments the census was that your bill will not help NJ residents. And even if it did that NJ would fight it in court for so long it would just die out anyway. The big concern is even though NJ does have a carry statue, which is one of the requirements of your bill, because of the Justifiable need code in NJ the avg. person is deprived of their 2nd amendment rights to Keep and Bear arms, outside the home. So most Guns owner in NJ have went to a carry class and got a Nonresident carry permit from say Utah. This permit will let NJ residents carry in 33 states "BUT NOT NJ", our home state. Our NJ2A community has ask me to ask you a straight forward question. Will your bill allow or force NJ to honor (NJ residents) who have a Non-Resident carry permit? Meaning will your bill let a NJ resident carry a handgun legally within NJ, by using a Non-NJ resident carry permit.,As long as the permit has a photo on it? IF not this is a 14th amendment lawsuit as non-resident of NJ would have more rights than the own citizens on NJ. I know your busy but please reply to me,
    Thanks John.

    (his office) Dec. 15, 2016 4:41pm

    Dear John –
    Thanks for reaching out. My name is Tatum and I'm Rep. Hudson's communications director. I understand your concerns and have spoken with our legislative staff. To answer your question, yes. Under the bill Rep. Hudson plans to introduce, a NJ resident can carry legally within NJ by using a non-resident carry permit with a valid identification document containing a photograph. All concealed carry permit holders must follow the laws of the state in which they are carrying concealed. I hope this answers your question.
    Thanks again, Tatum

    (me) Dec. 16th 10:32am

    Dear Tatum Gibson,
    Again on behalf of all of us, the NJ2AS and the NJ2AF and Myself we thank you and Congressman Hudson for your replies. But is there anything you can send us in writing that would state your office's claim. AS like I stated some members of our group are concerned based on the version of his bill that was released.
    Please let me know.
    John –

    (his office) Dec. 16, 2016 11:09 am

    Dear John –
    Here's part of the bill text we plan to introduce that should address your concerns -> “(a) Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection (b)) and subject only to the requirements of this section), a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, who is carrying "a" valid identification document containing "a photograph of the person", and who is carrying "a" valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitle to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State, other than the State of residence or licensure of the person, that…”

    I hope that Helps,
    Tatum.

    (me) Dec. 16th 11:22am

    Dear Tatum,
    Thanks again, But doesn't that leave the state to interpret that differently than it is intended. In Congressman's view "If" it passes, is there a way a state LIKE NJ could decide NOT to follow the law? because of the wording in the bill can be misinterpreted?

    Thanks John,

    UPDATE:

    (Tatum) Dec. 16th 2016 11:46am

    Dear John -
    We have reached out to legislative counsel who has confirmed this for us. I will have my legislative staff reach out to legislative counsel again to triple check, but it is our understanding that the wording of the bill makes it crystal clear that a NJ resident can carry legally within NJ by using a non-resident carry permit with a valid identification document containing a photograph. All concealed carry permit holders must follow the laws of the state in which they are carrying concealed.
    Also, Gun Owners of America has said this about our bill, "Second, the Hudson bill benefits citizens of anti-gun states who get permits from pro-gun states. So if a gun owner living in “occupied” California, New Jersey, or New York gets a carry permit from Utah, then he or she will be able to carry a firearm in any state in the country!"

    Thanks again, Tatum
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  10. #24
    Member Array jrobin3360's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Beyond semantics, there is no difference at all.
    Really???
    Please quote the section of the constitution or BoR where driving a vehicle is a RIGHT!!!

    Do other states govern how 1A is applied???? No, they don't.

    Do other states govern how 3A is applied???? No, they don't.

    Do other states govern how 4A is applied???? No, they don't.

    Do other states govern how 5A is applied???? No, they don't.

    WHY IS 2A TREATED SO FREAKIN' DIFFERENTLY????
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    A Kentucky CC permit recognized in (gulp!)...Illinois? Talk about a late Christmas present!
    When did this happen?

    Wanna bet that if I CC in Chicago I'll be arrested for unlawful CC of a deadly weapon?
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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXxHeavy View Post
    NJGF.........correspondence ....disclaimer, I am not John......ok...read it !!!!

    Everyone the following is full detail of my email messages and replies to and from Congressman Hudson’s office.

    Note: other than personal info of mine in which I removed - his office's replies to me are WORD for WORD. I still feel it leaves the door open, but I don't think NJ will see his bill the way he see's his bill... Enjoy the read...............and feel free to add any thoughts.......................

    (me) Dec 6th 2016 8:36am

    Dear Congressman Hudson

    I'm messaging you about the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017.
    Love your Idea, however I have a few questions. Me along with NJSARF group and the others ask that you add a provision in the new bill that will cover Non-Resident Carry Permits . We ask this Because NJ has unconstitutional laws that in a way keep NJ residents from getting a permit, in NJ you can apply, and you could get one, but the Admin Code keeps 99.97% of NJ residents from being issued one, Now NJ resident normally get N.H. and Utah Non-resident Permits that will allow us to carry in 33 states, but since NJ does not have a reciprocity agreement with ANY state we can't carry in NJ. But your bill, will allow anyone who has a carry permit from their home state to carry in all 50 states and DC. But not NJ residents. Leaving NJ residents at risk, as you will have tons of people that travel come to our state armed, but our own residents will not be. So you Bill Needs to include, that All Non-residents Permits that are issued with a photo on the ID, will be also honored in any state. Under the 14thAmendment. (The amendment addresses citizenship rights and equal protection of the laws) thanks please get back to me....

    I also mailed a letter to his DC office that was a lot long and more detailed.

    (Hudson) Dec. 13th 2016 10:48 a,

    Hey, John –

    Thanks for your note. Under the bill I plan to introduce next month, a non-resident concealed carry permit will qualify. Hope this addresses your concerns.

    Thanks again, Richard

    (me) Dec. 13th 2016 10:55 am

    Dear Congressman Hudson

    Thank you for your reply, everyone in NJ has been debating about your bill, as many of us believe the wording would NOT help NJ residents with Non-Resident carry permits. But based on what you just messaged me, your bill will 100% include non-resident permits, right?

    (Hudson) Dec. 13th 2016 11:47 am

    Hey, John –

    That's correct - it will include non-resident permits.

    Thanks again, Richard

    (me) Dec. 14th 2016 3:03 pm

    Dear Congressman Hudson and or his office,

    I am so sorry to bother you again; however I posted on the NJ2A community page on what you told me. However after 125 likes and comments the census was that your bill will not help NJ residents. And even if it did that NJ would fight it in court for so long it would just die out anyway. The big concern is even though NJ does have a carry statue, which is one of the requirements of your bill, because of the Justifiable need code in NJ the avg. person is deprived of their 2nd amendment rights to Keep and Bear arms, outside the home. So most Guns owner in NJ have went to a carry class and got a Nonresident carry permit from say Utah. This permit will let NJ residents carry in 33 states "BUT NOT NJ", our home state. Our NJ2A community has ask me to ask you a straight forward question. Will your bill allow or force NJ to honor (NJ residents) who have a Non-Resident carry permit? Meaning will your bill let a NJ resident carry a handgun legally within NJ, by using a Non-NJ resident carry permit.,As long as the permit has a photo on it? IF not this is a 14th amendment lawsuit as non-resident of NJ would have more rights than the own citizens on NJ. I know your busy but please reply to me,
    Thanks John.

    (his office) Dec. 15, 2016 4:41pm

    Dear John –
    Thanks for reaching out. My name is Tatum and I'm Rep. Hudson's communications director. I understand your concerns and have spoken with our legislative staff. To answer your question, yes. Under the bill Rep. Hudson plans to introduce, a NJ resident can carry legally within NJ by using a non-resident carry permit with a valid identification document containing a photograph. All concealed carry permit holders must follow the laws of the state in which they are carrying concealed. I hope this answers your question.
    Thanks again, Tatum

    (me) Dec. 16th 10:32am

    Dear Tatum Gibson,
    Again on behalf of all of us, the NJ2AS and the NJ2AF and Myself we thank you and Congressman Hudson for your replies. But is there anything you can send us in writing that would state your office's claim. AS like I stated some members of our group are concerned based on the version of his bill that was released.
    Please let me know.
    John –

    (his office) Dec. 16, 2016 11:09 am

    Dear John –
    Here's part of the bill text we plan to introduce that should address your concerns -> “(a) Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection (b)) and subject only to the requirements of this section), a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, who is carrying "a" valid identification document containing "a photograph of the person", and who is carrying "a" valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitle to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State, other than the State of residence or licensure of the person, that…”

    I hope that Helps,
    Tatum.

    (me) Dec. 16th 11:22am

    Dear Tatum,
    Thanks again, But doesn't that leave the state to interpret that differently than it is intended. In Congressman's view "If" it passes, is there a way a state LIKE NJ could decide NOT to follow the law? because of the wording in the bill can be misinterpreted?

    Thanks John,

    UPDATE:

    (Tatum) Dec. 16th 2016 11:46am

    Dear John -
    We have reached out to legislative counsel who has confirmed this for us. I will have my legislative staff reach out to legislative counsel again to triple check, but it is our understanding that the wording of the bill makes it crystal clear that a NJ resident can carry legally within NJ by using a non-resident carry permit with a valid identification document containing a photograph. All concealed carry permit holders must follow the laws of the state in which they are carrying concealed.
    Also, Gun Owners of America has said this about our bill, "Second, the Hudson bill benefits citizens of anti-gun states who get permits from pro-gun states. So if a gun owner living in “occupied” California, New Jersey, or New York gets a carry permit from Utah, then he or she will be able to carry a firearm in any state in the country!"

    Thanks again, Tatum
    Citizenship in action. Thanks for the effort, and for the posting.
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  13. #27
    Member Array jrobin3360's Avatar
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    FROM THE ARTICLE:

    the person must follow “the restrictions of that state.”

    Read more: Congressman Preps National Concealed Carry Bill For Next Congress | The Daily Caller
    So, if I carry to NY or CA with my G21 or FNS-9, I have to carry extra 10rd mags, stop at the state line, load my ammo into the mags.

    In CA, If I'm carrying a pistol that's not on the CADoJ "approved" roster, I'm in violation of CA law.

    This bill is a step in the right direction.....is it really?......but the only way to have REAL 2A reciprocity is for the SCOTUS to declare all gun laws nationwide to be unconstitutional.

    But I believe that, somehow, 10A will stand in the way of that......thought 10A has no more power than any other amendment. THEY ARE EQUAL!!!
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrobin3360 View Post
    Really???
    Please quote the section of the constitution or BoR where driving a vehicle is a RIGHT!!!

    Do other states govern how 1A is applied???? No, they don't.

    Do other states govern how 3A is applied???? No, they don't.

    Do other states govern how 4A is applied???? No, they don't.

    Do other states govern how 5A is applied???? No, they don't.

    WHY IS 2A TREATED SO FREAKIN' DIFFERENTLY????
    What are you yelling at me for? I merely stated how things are, not how we would like them to be. Fact is, I can legally drive vehicles weighing up to eighty-thousand pounds in any state in the US. By having demonstrated the necessary proficiencies, I have been granted that right. Conversely, there are several states which legally refuse me the privilege of carrying firearms in their state, reqardless of my competence, training or background.
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  15. #29
    Member Array jrobin3360's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    What are you yelling at me for? I merely stated how things are, not how we would like them to be. Fact is, I can legally drive vehicles weighing up to eighty-thousand pounds in any state in the US. By having demonstrated the necessary proficiencies, I have been granted that right. Conversely, there are several states which legally refuse me the privilege of carrying firearms in their state, reqardless of my competence, training or background.
    Sorry, didn't mean to yell but it's frustrating that there are so many people that equate driving a vehicle across the country with do the same with a firearm.

    They are not the same!!!

    When driving your rig across state lines, you haven't been granted the right. You have been given permission. That permission can be revoked at anytime by some yahoo bureaucrat with a whim to do so.
    Rights are not granted by the state!!!

    And yes, there are several states that legally???? refuse to allow you to carry firearm into their state (you call it a privilege).

    That "privilege" is actually a violation of a constitutional right that's been bastardized & marginalized into a "privilege" that We The People have allowed to happen.

    And now we are having to pay the price of allowing so much government over reach with a patchwork of laws to take back our rights.

    I won't speak for others when I say that we need eliminate that patchwork take back our rights guaranteed under the constitution & BoR.
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  16. #30
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    Hey jrobin, we're on YOUR side! You're preachin' to...the choir.
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

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