OK Fed judge says no locked guns in the lot - Page 2

OK Fed judge says no locked guns in the lot

This is a discussion on OK Fed judge says no locked guns in the lot within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by homepcmd About Business property rights... Since I parked my car on their property... does that give them the right to search without ...

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Thread: OK Fed judge says no locked guns in the lot

  1. #16
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by homepcmd View Post
    About Business property rights...

    Since I parked my car on their property... does that give them the right to search without my consent? And if they do it... is it legal?

    About liability... over 250 MILLION Guns and we report about 11,000 or so gun-related homicides a year... You probably have a better chance of getting hit by lighting (just a guess ;-).

    If I own a business... and you park on my property... can I demand to check your car for alcohol? For cigarettes (only non-smkers to keep insurance low)? For fatty food?

    What if I am PRO-LIFE and I see a pro choice pamplet? Can I demand -- since it's my property so it's my right -- that you not bring it in your car. OF course if you refuse I will fire you.

    If you cannot see that the property rights has limits since employees also have property rights and also have constitutional rights... WHICH I THINK BUSINESSES DO NOT HAVE BTW!
    I thought that we were discussing the rights of employees of a business, not that of the general public. If the parking lot is owned by the business, then IMO the business owner has the same property right with respect to prohibiting employees from having a gun in their car as they do in prohibiting guns in the workplace. I may not like it, but that is the right of the property owner.

    However, I do not believe that the business owner should have the right to search the employees car without his consent.


    And, by the way, a "business" often is nothing more then an individual, or group of individuals, who have joined together to operate a business. They don't, or at least IMO, should not give up their constituational rights as individuals merely business they are operating a business.
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    If the parking lot is owned by the business, then IMO the business owner has the same property right with respect to prohibiting employees from having a gun in their car as they do in prohibiting guns in the workplace.
    Agreed. The inability of one person or business to have an owner's control over the safety and sanctity of a property is to deny property rights of all. That's one terribly steep and slippery slope that has ramifications far beyond the mere carrying of a self-defense weapon. Liberty is tough, in that way. If it weren't, it wouldn't be called Liberty.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  3. #18
    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    To throw some fuel on the fire I don't know any company that requires you to drive to work and park in their parking lot. It would be interesting to know what percentage of companines in the USA actually provide parking for their employees. In new York City I would say few. One company I worked for provided parking for about one-half of their employees but those that worked in the corporate office had to find their own. It was a problem that those employees faced walking to their cars so that overtime had to be approved specifically to keep anyone from having to walk the streets after dark.

    Parking is actually a perk rather than required such as the workplace is. Lots of pros and cons on this discussion but I absolutely think that guns should be allowed in cars in the parking lot. Otherwise what are you going to do on your way home.


    And, by the way, a "business" often is nothing more then an individual, or group of individuals, who have joined together to operate a business. They don't, or at least IMO, should not give up their constituational rights as individuals merely business they are operating a business.
    Actually every business that I know of is owned by some person(s) for whatever reason but when a business opens its doors to the public some things change.

  4. #19
    Ron
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    [QUOTE=FN1910;4991.



    Actually every business that I know of is owned by some person(s) for whatever reason but when a business opens its doors to the public some things change.[/QUOTE]

    Agreed, they do subject themselves to "State" regulation, but that does not, or at least should not, include giving up Constitutional rights.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  5. #20
    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    Ron - I was trying to agree with you. It gets tricky but businesses are owned by people and people have rights. Even the gubmint is Of The People.

  6. #21
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by FN1910 View Post
    Ron - I was trying to agree with you. It gets tricky but businesses are owned by people and people have rights. Even the gubmint is Of The People.
    Sorry about that. My mistake. We are obviously in agreement on this.

    Take care.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array ICTsnub's Avatar
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    Hooray Kansas

    From the Ks AG website
    Also changed with HB 2528, business owners (both public and private)
    may continue to post their buildings to restrict the concealed carry of
    firearms, but parking lots are no longer allowed to be posted.
    - Cities and counties may continue to post their buildings, but parks,
    greenways, etc., are no longer allowed to be posted.
    - Employers, both public and private, may continue to restrict a licensed
    employee’s ability to carry concealed while they are performing the duties
    of their employ, but licensed employees are allowed to store their firearm
    in their private means of conveyance, even if parked on company
    property.

  8. #23
    Member Array landelmer's Avatar
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    When it comes to an induvial's "Rights" since when did a property owner have the ability to deny you your basic Rights(the Bill of Rights) in this Country? I thought I understood the basic laws in our country but maybe I need an example.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by landelmer View Post
    When it comes to an induvial's "Rights" since when did a property owner have the ability to deny you your basic Rights(the Bill of Rights) in [the USA]?
    Since the dawn of the USA.

    You believe you have a right to speak, assemble, petition for redress of grievances, be secure in your person and effects, possess and carry a firearm, and so on. As a citizen of the U.S., so you do. On your nickel, your time and your property, you absolutely do. Some other places, as well, such as public lands. Knock yourself out, at such a place.

    However, there are limits. In my own living room, my right to control that living room as I see fit (as owner) trumps your perceived rights while in my living room. In simple point of fact, you're there by my leave, as owner. Got a problem with that? You have the liberty to do what you please elsewhere, on your property, on your time, on your nickel. But not on mine, at my expense. That's property rights for you.

    When it comes down to it, I don't think we'd really prefer they be trumped by anything like what's being suggested, much as we all would dearly love to be armed everywhere up to and including places where owners have decided no such thing shall be allowed.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Legally, I can carry in any open parking lot in the state (Missouri) regardless of the owner's wishes. And I will. If the owner doesn't like it, he can take it up with the state legislature. In the meantime, I'll be carrying... legally.

  11. #26
    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    Very well said ccw9mm, it always amazes me the number of people that tend to ignore the other 9 amendments of the Bill of Rights in favor of the one they want to proclaim as supreme. This isn't unique to 2A supporters but to many others.

  12. #27
    Member Array bobernet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foreveryoung001
    I am back and forth on this issue a lot. As strongly as I support the RKBA, I also support the right of a property owner to decide what he/she will allow on their property.
    I see this argument a lot, and while I get it on some level, I don't understand why we should apply it to concealed weapons.

    If I decide I don't want pink panties at my company, can I demand female employees to drop their pants/lift their dress whenever I want? If I don't like tattoos, can I require male or female employees to undress to see if they might have a tattoo somewhere not readily visible?

    As a property owner, I always have the right to ask someone to leave if I don't want them there. But, I don't think my right extends to invading their privacy to see if they might be doing something I don't agree with that is not readily apparent.

    My rights as a property owner only extend as far as someone else's rights. My right to property and stewardship of it doesn't trump your God-given right to life (and the defense of it).

    The old saying goes that my right to swing my fist ends at your face.

  13. #28
    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    What if the pink panties are on the dash of her car? What about if the panties are exposed along with the tattoos when she bends over and her cutoff t-shirt does't meet her lowcut jorts. How about if you catch her flashing her pink panties to a co-worker?

    How about if you are a Pepsi bottler and someone insists on wearing a Coca-Cola T-shirt expressing their first amendment rights or you are a gun dealer and an employee wears a Brady Bunch button. How about an employee insists that he has on steel toed nikes, can you insist that he take them off and let you inspect them? Gets tricky real fast doesn't it?

  14. #29
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobernet View Post
    I see this argument a lot, and while I get it on some level, I don't understand why we should apply it to concealed weapons.

    If I decide I don't want pink panties at my company, can I demand female employees to drop their pants/lift their dress whenever I want? If I don't like tattoos, can I require male or female employees to undress to see if they might have a tattoo somewhere not readily visible?

    As a property owner, I always have the right to ask someone to leave if I don't want them there. But, I don't think my right extends to invading their privacy to see if they might be doing something I don't agree with that is not readily apparent.

    My rights as a property owner only extend as far as someone else's rights. My right to property and stewardship of it doesn't trump your God-given right to life (and the defense of it).

    The old saying goes that my right to swing my fist ends at your face.
    The issue is not whether the proprty owner has a right to search an employee, without the consent of the employee, only whether the business owner may establish a no guns policy.

    And, as much as I may not like it, I am afraid that, in this context, my property right does trump what you are calling your "god-given right to life(and the defense of it). If you are a customer of the business, you have the right to not shop at that establishment, and thus avoid the risk of being unarmed, and the same is true if you are an employee. If you feel at risk because of the no guns policy of the business owner, then you have the right to quit.

    No one is forcing you to continue to shop there or to continue to work at that business. I know that it sucks, but life often involves making compromises.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  15. #30
    Member Array bobernet's Avatar
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    For the sake of argument, let's say the anti's win the media war and every business (or most) has such a policy. We're getting close to that already.

    What happens when my ability to just "go work elsewhere" disappears. Should I have to sacrifice my right to life and the defense of it to earn a living and provide for my family? Right or wrong, that was the logic behind the protected statuses. If employer X doesn't want to hire you because you're too old, just go to employer Y. If restaurant X doesn't want blacks on his property, just eat at restaurant Y.

    "The issue is not whether the property owner has a right to search an employee..." actually, that is exactly what it's about. If your weapon is concealed, this is the only option they have to detect/enforce. And an employer demanding you consent to a search or be fired has been the topic of numerous threads here.

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