OK Fed judge says no locked guns in the lot

This is a discussion on OK Fed judge says no locked guns in the lot within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Well, here's another job for the Supremes. http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.as...20071010b.html Cheers! harleyb...

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Thread: OK Fed judge says no locked guns in the lot

  1. #1
    Member Array harleyb's Avatar
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    OK Fed judge says no locked guns in the lot

    Well, here's another job for the Supremes.

    http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.as...20071010b.html

    Cheers!

    harleyb

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    Member Array foreveryoung001's Avatar
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    I am back and forth on this issue a lot. As strongly as I support the RKBA, I also support the right of a property owner to decide what he/she will allow on their property.

    Long before I had my CPL, I kept a rifle or shotgun in my trunk (Depending on what hunting season it was) so I could hit the woods during lunch or after work. I simply never sent a resume to anyplace that had a corporate policy that would prohibit me from doing that.

    I honestly don't know what the "right" legal decision on this issue is, but I've always taken steps to avoid being in the middle of it.
    When the messenger arrives and says 'Don't shoot the messenger,' it's a good idea to be prepared to shoot the messenger, just in case.

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    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foreveryoung001 View Post
    I am back and forth on this issue a lot. As strongly as I support the RKBA, I also support the right of a property owner to decide what he/she will allow on their property.

    Long before I had my CPL, I kept a rifle or shotgun in my trunk (Depending on what hunting season it was) so I could hit the woods during lunch or after work. I simply never sent a resume to anyplace that had a corporate policy that would prohibit me from doing that.

    I honestly don't know what the "right" legal decision on this issue is, but I've always taken steps to avoid being in the middle of it.
    Okay what about National land owned by the federal government? US government is the owner, they say NO guns allowed. Well I guess that puts OBX off limits since its national sea shore.
    Every piece of property is owned by somebody whether its a city street or a compost pile.

    I am a firm believer in out site out of mind. I believe that an private land owner can ask anybody to get off his her property, but I don't believe a business that I work at has the right to dictate how I should feel safe. Expecially since we all know that gun free zones are target rich enviorments.

    Also, just because i'm carrying a gun dosn't mean I'm violating my bosses/owner rights.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

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    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    I am a firm believer in out site out of mind. I believe that an private land owner can ask anybody to get off his her property, but I don't believe a business that I work at has the right to dictate how I should feel safe. Expecially since we all know that gun free zones are target rich enviorments.

    Also, just because i'm carrying a gun dosn't mean I'm violating my bosses/owner rights.
    First, let me say that I believe that a business owner that makes their premises a "gun free" zone, by prohibiting its employees from carrying while working is making a mistake.

    With that said, however, I also believe that the owner of private property may establish rules of behavior for those who choose to be on that property, including employees. The right of ownership, includes the right to be stupid. Your right, if you object to those rules, is to quit so that you are no longer at risk because you are not armed.

    By continuing to carry, knowing that you are violating your employers policy, IMO does mean that you are violating your bosses/owners rights.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

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    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    I mostly agree with Ron on this. I do think though we need to look a little closer into how corporations now dominate our lives in many ways.

    When a company opens up itself to the public it voluntarily gives up many of the rights it had. A company cannot say blacks, Jews or gays are not allowed in. This is already established. I see no reason, that if a majority in a state feel that way, that a law cannot be passed further limiting the rights of owners on "private property" when that property is openned to the public and un-regulated. Additionally I think a person's motor vehicle should be considerred an extension of their home. An employer should have no more right to demand it be searched than they would the employee's home and any company policy demanding such should be illegal. If the company believes their is theft going on they can always call teh police and see about a warrant.

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    What about driving to/from work? I can understand (not agree with) prohibiting firearms *in the workplace*--but if it is secured in MY vehicle--hands off!

    The company is not responsible for my safety to/from work--or if I make stops on the way to work/home. To me, that infringes on my right to defend myself. So who's property rights are being violated?
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    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    The problem is that property owners are doing nothing to guarantee the employee's safety on or off of their property. They may claim that this step makes employee's safer but we all know that it doesn't, and what about when you travel to and from work? They are denying you the right to self-protection while traveling. I don't believe that their right can or should be allowed to extend that far. A persons right to self-protection is paramount and I believe should supersede a property owners rights.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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    Member Array aquanomics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foreveryoung001 View Post
    I am back and forth on this issue a lot. As strongly as I support the RKBA, I also support the right of a property owner to decide what he/she will allow on their property.....
    Fair enough, if a private company thinks gun-free is a good safety policy, they should accept responsibility AND liability for harm come to employees resulting from their inability to protect themselves.

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    Senior Member Array Daddy Warcrimes's Avatar
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    If the parking lot is in some way blocked off even by adequate signage, it would seem reasonable to me for the property owner to restrict what goes in there.

    When a parking lot is open to the public, it is indicative of an easement. The easement allows me to park or drive my vehicle, or even walk through the lot. If my property remains within the area of the easement, and it violates neither the intent of the easement nor the rights of others, I don't see how I can be faulted.

    Analogy:
    I have an easement in the form of a sidewalk on one side of my property. I can't prohibit anyone; Chinese, French, straight, gay, bipolar, former felon, or sailor from walking across it. I can't tell the hobo not to bring his shopping cart on it; I can't tell you not to walk your gerbil on it; and I can't stop someone legally armed from walking on it.

    My house has an easement to the power company, the city water and sewer, the city, the cable company, and of course that 150' X 3' easement that runs along the front for the public at large. Property owners have rights, but no rights are absolute.
    "and suddenly I can not hold back my sword hand's anger"

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    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquanomics View Post
    Fair enough, if a private company thinks gun-free is a good safety policy, they should accept responsibility AND liability for harm come to employees resulting from their inability to protect themselves.
    I have no problem with that. That is part of what Freedom and Liberty should be about. He should have a right to make that decision with respect to his property, but should also be responsible for the consequences of that policy.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

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    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Having recenty finished my CCW class, I remember the instructor saying if the parking lot is accessible to the general public, having a gun in the car is legal even if the building is posted for no guns. If the parking lot is restricted to employees by a badge entry, for example, the employer can make the parking lot a no-gun zone.

    If the parking lot is openly accessible to the public, guns in vehicles are allowed in Missouri.

    I would hate to lose that right. My trip to work and back is often the most dangerous part of my day.

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    Member Array kj5634's Avatar
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    Glad I'm Retired. Carried but never got caughted.

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    About Business property rights...

    Since I parked my car on their property... does that give them the right to search without my consent? And if they do it... is it legal?

    About liability... over 250 MILLION Guns and we report about 11,000 or so gun-related homicides a year... You probably have a better chance of getting hit by lighting (just a guess ;-).

    If I own a business... and you park on my property... can I demand to check your car for alcohol? For cigarettes (only non-smkers to keep insurance low)? For fatty food?

    What if I am PRO-LIFE and I see a pro choice pamplet? Can I demand -- since it's my property so it's my right -- that you not bring it in your car. OF course if you refuse I will fire you.

    If you cannot see that the property rights has limits since employees also have property rights and also have constitutional rights... WHICH I THINK BUSINESSES DO NOT HAVE BTW!
    “We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm” - George Orwell

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    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    The mods might want to merge another thread with this one....

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ad.php?t=33508
    Last edited by randytulsa2; October 10th, 2007 at 11:05 PM. Reason: Maybe I figured out how to put a link in......
    "...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."


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    Senior Member Array Daddy Warcrimes's Avatar
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    Fed, my post was opinion only. It remains my opinion and I should have so stated. They may not be in a legal sense.

    An easement is where persons other than a property owner have rights to that property. This is based upon the nature of the property. The nature of a public parking lot is for visitors or customers to park their cars; it was created for that purpose. If the parking is reasonably restricted physically or by signal, then I don't consider it to be an easement.

    The parking lot where I work not only has a physical barrier, but is federal property. That's why I park elsewhere.

    As for insurance, I've often heard this argument but I've not seen any such policy. I don't doubt it's possibility but I'm curious to read one. My homeowners insurance company was not one bit interested in what guns I had there nor how I stored them (although they did at one point offer to insure the guns; still thinking about it)
    "and suddenly I can not hold back my sword hand's anger"

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