Worse Case Scenerio - Page 2

Worse Case Scenerio

This is a discussion on Worse Case Scenerio within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by vernonator Look at the last 5 presidential elections that had a 3rd party candidate. That 3rd party was a spoiler for one ...

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Thread: Worse Case Scenerio

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vernonator View Post
    Look at the last 5 presidential elections that had a 3rd party candidate. That 3rd party was a spoiler for one party or the other in at least 3 (Bush/Clinton/Perot - advantage Clinton, Dole/Clinton/Perot - advantage Clinton, Bush/Gore/Nader - advantage Bush) in all these cases the 3rd party drew from people that traditionally voted for the losing major party. So if you would normally vote Repub but think the candidtate is too soft on the 2A so you vote libertarian (or whatever) you REALLY just voted for the Dem.

    Until you get a 3rd party candidate that
    a) can finance virtually their entire campaign out-of-pocket
    b) pull in 20 - 25% of both partites core
    No, if you vote for a candidate, your voting for a candidate, not for someone else. I am not going to debate throwing a vote away or not, you have your opinion, and I have mine, apparently we differ.

    Look at the last 12 presidential races, only 55% of the eligible voters actually voted. That is the saddest fact of them all. If 1/2 of those 45% who didn't vote supported someone other than the two parties that many have given up on, it would be one heck of a blow to the establishment.

    My point is that it is still fairly early in the game. If people aren't happy with the front runners of their party, now is the time to do something about it. Not dwelling on what is going to happen when candidate X wins the election.

    By the way, Ron Paul is actually in the Republican party, not a 3rd party candidate.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post

    By the way, Ron Paul is actually in the Republican party, not a 3rd party candidate.
    And the real sad part is that he is their best hope and they do not see it.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  3. #18
    Member Array xd.40sub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon J View Post
    And the real sad part is that he is their best hope and they do not see it.
    I see it
    do what you can with what you have where you are at (theodore roosevelt)

  4. #19
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    Gives me a headache thinking about it

  5. #20
    Member Array vernonator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon J View Post
    And the real sad part is that he is their best hope and they do not see it.
    Have you watched any of the debates....he comes off as a complete kook. Yes I know he is running as a repub but he started his career as a Libertarian and has stated that if he is not the Repub nominee he may run as a Libertarian for pres - hence my using him as an example of 3rd party.

    I do like ALOT of what RP has to say regarding the 2A, taxes, etc. But he takes things too far - he said he wants to eliminate the FBI? No he is not the Repubs best hope - Fred Thompson is, if he can show a bit more energy I think he has a real shot.....

    FW - I know when you vote for someone thats who you vote for....but why do it if its for someone that CANNOT win AND it gives an advantage to the worse of two evils. Just my realist side taking over I guess......hell if I had my choice I would throw the ALL out and start over.....

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    I believe that there is only one reason to consider voting for a third-party candidate.

    That is because you truly believe that sometime in the very distant future, the message will be heard and changes made.

    FACT - there are not enough people voting for third party candidates to give them ANY chance of winning.

    FACT - if the election is close, votes for a third party candidate could throw the victory to the Democrats.

    Will this help us during 4 or 8 Hillery years? Not visibly. Could it send a message to the ousted party that they need to shape up? Possibly.

    Could it wake up the conservative voters and convince them that they need to vote for a third party? Possibly.

    Unless you truly believe that voting for a third party and giving the upcoming election to your oposition will eventually cause positive changes, voting for the "best candidate" who has no chance of winning is like standing in the path of a speeding bullet and saying, "I'm not moving; I have a right to be here".

    The key is: vote your conscience whether you are attempting to effect the outcome of this election or some future election.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vernonator View Post
    There really is no thinking a 3rd party candidate can't make it, unless there is a dramatic shift in the electorate its a fact....it just is.

    I do agree that Hillary/Rudy on 2A is not much of a choice (maybe a small advantage to Rudy)....but is ANYONE truly a single issue voter? I hope not, because you will be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    Look at the last 5 presidential elections that had a 3rd party candidate. That 3rd party was a spoiler for one party or the other in at least 3 (Bush/Clinton/Perot - advantage Clinton, Dole/Clinton/Perot - advantage Clinton, Bush/Gore/Nader - advantage Bush) in all these cases the 3rd party drew from people that traditionally voted for the losing major party. So if you would normally vote Repub but think the candidtate is too soft on the 2A so you vote libertarian (or whatever) you REALLY just voted for the Dem.

    Until you get a 3rd party candidate that
    a) can finance virtually their entire campaign out-of-pocket
    b) pull in 20 - 25% of both partites core

    we will not have a 3rd party president. Look at the house/senate - over 500 members and how many are 3rd party? Maybe 10 - 15 topes? Not gonna happen, trust me I don't like it any more than anyone else but be realistic - we live in a two party system.

    Great you voted your concious and didn't vote for either - so we end up with Hillary and 1 TRILLION dollars more in social entitlments, 70% income tax bracket, the out right criminalization of firearm ownership just for starters....bravo, good for you, you sure showed them huh?
    This is a pretty realistic view of the electoral situation as it now stands. Perot was really the only potentially viable 3rd party candidate because he had finances and somewhat of an organization. It was not sustainable, however, as a 3rd party, because it was based only on one individual's candidacy. When he no longer led, the "party" was over.

    A 3rd party which is too extremely oriented to either the right or the left will never be viable, because they just don't garner a broad enough spectrum of the population to win a national election. And typically, when the effort adversely affects the election in the minds of most 3rd party members, they move back into the mainstream pretty quickly.

    Nader's effect on the 2000 election is a case in point. If not for Nader's influence, Al Gore wins Florida outright and we're spared eight years of W. It's unlikely Nader could gain that much support again.

    Single issue or personality cult 3rd parties are just not going to be major players on the national scene other than a disruptive influence, until they can build enough of a base to truly draw a substantial number of supporters from the current two parties.

    Of course, with the all the rumblings about the core Republican base splitting off because they'll never support someone like Giuliani, the real ideologues could perhaps hasten that party's demise and a new one rise from the ashes.
    Cheers,
    Rod
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  8. #23
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    Unless you truly believe that voting for a third party and giving the upcoming election to your oposition will eventually cause positive changes, voting for the "best candidate" who has no chance of winning is like standing in the path of a speeding bullet and saying, "I'm not moving; I have a right to be here".

    The key is: vote your conscience whether you are attempting to effect the outcome of this election or some future election.
    Well said. People who vote for someone because they have 3 good points and 5 bad instead of 1 good point and 7 bad are still voting for someone that's ultimately bad.

    All this harping in the thread about not letting the Dems win like the Republicans are real champions of the 2nd Amendment. If you believe that outside of a few select individuals, you need to go read voting records.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I am already making preparations. A couple of hi cap mags every now and then, and soon maybe a stripped AR lower or two. They aren't as cheap as they once were, but if they pass another ban, they are money in the bank! We are really talking about a long term threat here folks. How many Supreme Court Justices can we expect to stick around for the next eight years? The balance appears to be in our favor now, but that could all change with a couple of coronarys.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  10. #25
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    Basic feelings?...

    :hand7:
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  11. #26
    Member Array vernonator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SammyIamToday View Post
    Well said. People who vote for someone because they have 3 good points and 5 bad instead of 1 good point and 7 bad are still voting for someone that's ultimately bad.

    All this harping in the thread about not letting the Dems win like the Republicans are real champions of the 2nd Amendment. If you believe that outside of a few select individuals, you need to go read voting records.
    Face it when you vote you ARE voting for the lesser of two evils. I know the Repubs are not all true supporters of the 2A - but they are sure better than the likes of Hillary, Nancy Pelosi and Barbara Boxer - and THEY will be in charge if the Repubs don't take the White House. THAT may spell the complete demise of the 2A. It's great to try and be true to your convictions, but you have to be realistic as well. A vote for a 3rd part (from a traditional Repub) is a vote for the Dems....

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vernonator View Post
    Face it when you vote you ARE voting for the lesser of two evils. I know the Repubs are not all true supporters of the 2A - but they are sure better than the likes of Hillary, Nancy Pelosi and Barbara Boxer - and THEY will be in charge if the Repubs don't take the White House. THAT may spell the complete demise of the 2A. It's great to try and be true to your convictions, but you have to be realistic as well. A vote for a 3rd part (from a traditional Repub) is a vote for the Dems....
    I haven't voted for the lesser of two evils since the first time I was allowed to vote. It's imo stupid to vote for someone that won't properly represent you.

    It still isn't a vote for the Dems no matter what anyone says, that's ridiculous. Fear mongering won't work on me. If some anti-gunner wins and attacks the 2A, I can go from there, but I'm not going to sell out my principles based on what ifs and fear.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

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