ZOMG!! Ban Deadly Black Powder Muzzle Loaders!

This is a discussion on ZOMG!! Ban Deadly Black Powder Muzzle Loaders! within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...cal&id=5714222 A major loophole in NYS gun lawsEyewitness News Exclusive (New York - WABC, Oct. 18, 2007) - An Eyewitness News undercover investigation reveals just ...

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Thread: ZOMG!! Ban Deadly Black Powder Muzzle Loaders!

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    ZOMG!! Ban Deadly Black Powder Muzzle Loaders!

    http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...cal&id=5714222

    A major loophole in NYS gun lawsEyewitness News Exclusive

    (New York - WABC, Oct. 18, 2007) - An Eyewitness News undercover investigation reveals just how easy it is, and perfectly legal, for anyone to get their hands on a deadly firearm -- no background check needed, no drivers license even needs to be shown.

    The Investigators Jim Hoffer has more on this exclusive story.
    New York state has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation. But after the gun scare at St. John's University in Queens, we decided to take a closer look at the law as it applies to a specific type of rifle -- one that panicked a campus and nearly killed a state police trooper.

    Hoffer: "You get a whole kit? .. do you sell a lot of these?
    Gun clerk: "Yes"

    In the time that it takes to purchase a pair of socks, one can buy a deadly rifle.

    Eyewitness News went undercover at Dicks Sporting Goods store in Upstate New York and with less information than is needed to borrow a library book, we bought a 50-caliber black powder hunting rifle. We just counted out the cash, about $200 and walked away with a brand new, highly powerful weapon.

    So, 10 minutes inside this store, I was able to get a gun identical to the one the St. John's student had. I got this with no questions asked, no background check, no identification needed -- all perfectly legal. Let's make no mistake, this isn't a toy, it's a very lethal weapon.

    A weapon's expert with the Harrison police department demonstrated for us its power.

    Sgt. Michael Olsey: "Highly accurate, really very powerful able to take down large North American game.
    Hoffer: "Even a bear?
    Sgt. Olsey: "Bear, grizzly, black bear ... you name it."

    "I didn't really see him, all I saw was the barrel of a gun and he shot me," said state trooper Amanda Reif.

    State police trooper Amanda Reif has felt the power of the black powder rifle when she was shot by one last summer while responding to a domestic call.

    "This one hit my vest and it mushroomed, it was the first shot. The second shot just hit a little higher," she said.

    She has battled back from near death spending hours each week in rehab. The gunman whom she was able to shoot and kill was a convicted rapist -- a felon who obtained the rifle because of a gaping loophole in New York state's gun laws.

    That is, blackpowder firearms are considered "antiques" because they are muzzle loaded. State and federal gun laws do not include antique firearms, so they are exempt from any permits or background checks.

    "I'm not anti-gun by any means, I grew up with weapons and I believe everyone should be able to carry one if they're legal to possess one but you shouldn't be able to have ready access to them like that," Reif said.

    Just a few weeks ago, a St. John's student with a history of psychological problems had ready access to a black powder rifle, buying one with no questions asked and then creating a panic when he walked onto campus with the gun loaded.

    But to expose the enormity of this loophole, The Investigators purchased another black powder rifle, this time on the Internet. In just four days, it was delivered directly to my house all for under $200 dollars.

    "Any convicted felon can just walk into a store, purchase this weapon and be on the street in 10 minutes ready to ... kill," Olsey said.

    Police Commissioner Ray Kelly is not happy about the antique gun loophole. He says it should be done away with immediately.

    We have a call into the governor's office to see what can be done about it.

    If you have a tip about this or any other investigative story, give our tip-line a call at 877-TIP-NEWS.
    The video's worse than the article.

    Mark my words... Airguns will be next.
    "A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
    Is this hard to understand? Then why does it get unintelligible to some people when 5 little words are changed?

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed airguns will be next and already have been in a few cities such as Baltimore, MD and Springfield, MA.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    So how stupid do you have to be...

    to stick around....
    "This one hit my vest and it mushroomed, it was the first shot. The second shot just hit a little higher," she said.
    Seeing as how it probably took close to a minute for the BG to reload the riffle.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  5. #4
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon J View Post
    to stick around....

    Seeing as how it probably took close to a minute for the BG to reload the riffle.
    In the vid, it seems what happened was the BG put two balls in the barrel, so one shot = two projectiles.
    "A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
    Is this hard to understand? Then why does it get unintelligible to some people when 5 little words are changed?

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob The Great View Post
    In the vid, it seems what happened was the BG put two balls in the barrel, so one shot = two projectiles.
    Which likely is the only reason she is alive able to tell tale.
    The energy required to throw two projectiles reduced the kinetic energy by half of as much that would be the norm.

    Yet another example for antis of the old saying; 'Where there is a will (of a criminal mind), there is a way (to act criminally)'.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #6
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Which likely is the only reason she is alive able to tell tale.
    The energy required to throw two projectiles reduced the kinetic energy by half of as much that would be the norm.
    This is true, but even if it had been just one, it's a large diameter soft lead ball going about the speed of a handgun round. I would think a Level II vest would stop it even at full power.
    "A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
    Is this hard to understand? Then why does it get unintelligible to some people when 5 little words are changed?

  8. #7
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    Idle thoughts re the energy potential - just weighed one of my home cast 50 cal Minnie bullets - 375 grain (.86 ounce) ...... typical velocity from ML rifle is around shotgun speed - say 1200 fps. That equates to close to 1200 ft lbs. Certainly some nasty blunt force trauma likely from soemthing like that.

    Yet another example for antis of the old saying; 'Where there is a will (of a criminal mind), there is a way (to act criminally)'.
    True Janq - so true.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    That 8 point buck I whacked last week with my .50 ML certainly experienced some nasty blunt force trauma...

    It cracks me up when anti's find something out that has been fact for decades and then put out the info and act like it is a new practice.

    Muzzle loading pistols,rifle and shotguns have always been exempt from FFL laws. All one has to do is to look at any sporting catalog like Cabela's or Bass Pro or any multitude of sporting shops that you can order from.

    The only thing that worries me about this is that most people don't own a muzzle loader. The anti's are using the divide and conquer technique that worked so well for the passage of the Brady Bill the first time around.

    "Well, I don't own an (assault weapon,blackgun,military rifle or mulzzleloader or insert whatever here) and it wont affect me so I don't care.

    Just another method for disarmament. Get the ones that have the least opposition first. Then simply step it up. One only has to look at how it was done in England to understand the method.

    And another thing that chaps me every time I read it
    ...is
    the " I'm not antigun by any means but I think that they ought do something about this" argument in an attempt to give a story some validity. Apparently it works on dumb people.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  10. #9
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    I can just see gangbangers, terrorists or active shooters firing then struggling to reload in order to take out the next target.

    Where's Daniel Day Lewis when you need him?
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

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    I can just see gangbangers, terrorists or active shooters firing then struggling to reload in order to take out the next target.
    That would be one way to get rid of them...
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
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  12. #11
    Member Array mousehunter's Avatar
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    A few years ago, a bp bullet manufacturer came out with a steel tipped bullet (for the big 5 in Africa). Imagine if this yahoo had used one of those on that vest.

  13. #12
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    follow-up --> Apparently, they generated enough panic with this story to attract some ambulance-chasing politicians.

    And of course, the reporters are all smug about they're "under-cover" investigation that is now blosuming into another round of fear-induced government control. Disgraceful!

    http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...cal&id=5722620

    Spitzer responds to ABC7 gun investigation

    Eyewitness News Exclusive

    (New York - WABC, October 23, 2007) - Last week, The Investigators went undercover to expose a gaping loophole in New York state's gun laws. Now Governor Eliot Spitzer is promising to examine the problem more closely.

    The Investigators Jim Hoffer has the story.

    The black powder rifle's exemption from gun laws is one of the last remaining major gun loopholes in the state of New York. But the days of buying this deadly weapon no questions asked may be numbered.

    Our undercover investigation showed with alarming clarity just how easy it is to get a black powder rifle in New York.

    Be it in a department store or on the Internet, the highly powerful .50 caliber weapon can be purchased without any identification, permit or background check.

    That's because the black powder gun is muzzle loaded and therefore classified as antique -- and state and federal gun laws do not include antique firearms.

    We took the issue to the governor, the one most able to do something about it.

    Jim Hoffer: "What if anything can you do as governor to try to close this black powder gun loophole?"
    Governor Spitzer: "We have a number of loophole closing gun-related bills that have been proposed. None of which has moved yet through the legislature, but I will look to see if they cover this particular situation."
    Hoffer: "And if they don't will you move on that do you think?"
    Spitzer: "Sure, it's obviously something that bears examination."

    Twice in the last four months, the deadly black-powder gun made news. First, a student with a history of psychological problems carried one loaded onto the St. John's University campus. And in June, a convicted rapist with the same kind of gun shot and nearly killed a state police trooper.

    "These guns can kill and they should be subject to the same restrictions that other guns are subject to," said Michael Gianaris (D-Queens).

    The Queens state lawmaker says after seeing our investigation he'll be introducing legislation to close the loophole that exempts these so-called antique weapons from gun laws.

    "Clearly this gun has already done harm to a state trooper, it almost caused a tragedy at St. John's and we have to act quickly to keep them out of the hands of people who shouldn't be holding guns," Gianaris said.

    Assemblyman Gianaris plans to introduce the gun bill in the general assembly next week.
    "A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
    Is this hard to understand? Then why does it get unintelligible to some people when 5 little words are changed?

  14. #13
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    another knee jerk reaction

    great
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  15. #14
    Senior Member Array Duisburg's Avatar
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    wow, this is in line the "Drive by Bayonettings" that led to their demise in the assualt weapons ban.
    I think archery, blow guns and sling shots will be next and with any luck spitwad shooters too
    I am sworn to protect the Constitution of the U.S.A. from all threats both foreign and domestic.

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    The new weapon of choice, Black powder Pepper Box you get 4 to 6 shots befour having to reload. Black powder Revolvers. Note in Washington State black powder is ilegal for felons.

    {RCW 9.41.010
    Terms defined.

    Unless the context clearly requires otherwise, the definitions in this section apply throughout this chapter.

    (1) "Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder.}

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