LEO saw the gun

This is a discussion on LEO saw the gun within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by blueyedevil Aren't you supposed to train to a minimum level BEFORE hitting the streets to prevent major screw ups like this. Absolutely. ...

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Thread: LEO saw the gun

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array Sergeant Mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueyedevil View Post
    Aren't you supposed to train to a minimum level BEFORE hitting the streets to prevent major screw ups like this.
    Absolutely.

    But it's very difficult, if not impossible, to replicate in training the fear of imminent violent death.

    ...and before anyone starts squawking about cowardice, remember that courage is not the absence of fear. It's working THROUGH the fear.

    In my opinion, that can only be done via OJT.

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  3. #47
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    I'd be willing to bet that he handled it exactly as trained. The only difference is that he was in his high pitched squealy voice due to adrenaline flow.





    Edited to add...minus the finger on the trigger...
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  4. #48
    Member Array Manan's Avatar
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    Please, please, please, file an official complaint. Let his supervisors retrain him or determine other consequences. This guy is on your streets in your community. Protect others from this guy.

    Several years ago in Central Illinois, a young small town cop drove 30 miles to another small town to shoot a locally known and slightly mentally retarded man for driving off from the local gas mart & not paying for $13 in gas. The local cops had already gone to drivers parents house and collected the $13.
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  5. #49
    Senior Member Array blueyedevil's Avatar
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    So you're suggesting that it's SOP to aim, with the finger on the trigger at anyone who is in proximity to a firearm? Hmmmm, I'm guessing that just isn't the case. I doubt it's SOP to proceed with a felony stop just because there is a firearm present. I've been contacted by Police with a firearm on my hip, in the cab etc. and never, ever was it conducted as a felony stop, and I don't think they were disregarding SOP by doing so. Hey I'll be the first one to write a thankyou letter when an LEO does a good job, and have done so in the past. But I'll also be the first one to light the fire when one gets out of line. I think this case falls into the latter category.

  6. #50
    Distinguished Member Array Pro2A's Avatar
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    I think there are two types of LEO's in this situation. You have the kind that support the second amendment and don't get into a tizzy at the sight of a gun, or at the fact you tell them you have one.

    Then you have these guys who I honestly think are few and far between, young, power hungry guys like in this situation who think only LEO's should be allowed guns... because after all us commonors are too stupid to have them.

    I would file a complaint and maybe even get an attorney to represent you. This is America, not 1939 Nazi Germany, and thats what that story sounded like. The search was unwarranted after you informed the officer of your CCW, it should have ended right there...

  7. #51
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    Hotguns what would you have done if you were the people in the car and the LEO pointed his weapon at you? I'm not sure what I would do but I know it would of freaked me out. I do not want to get a good cop in trouble. His job is hard enough without me making it harder. But how can a lay person tell the difference between an LEO who just made a bad mistake from an LEO who has no business being a LEO. Just like any work not everyone belongs there and being this is work that requires you to carry a weapon it should put you on a higher level on if you are cut out for this kind of work. I hope no one thinks I'm cop bashing. I'm just not sure what I would do after this situation. I do not want to get a good LEO into trouble for not being smart just for one moment. But I do want to weed out the bad ones who just can not do this kind of work. I'm just wonder what the experience ones and LEO's on here would do if it was turned around

    Sorry for the long reply Ben, I just got back from church.


    If I in a situation where an LEO was pointing a gun at me, I would do EXACTLY what he told me to do. There will be time to sort everything out later.

    When some Cop is pointing a gun on you and his finger is on the trigger that is not the time to argue or second guess. Your only priority there is to not get shot. If you feel like the actions were unjustified, you have your lawyer argue the fine points with the Police Dept when its over.

    Fact of the matter is, you wont be able to tell a bad cop from a good cop in one stop. Its not up to us to determine whether he is a bad cop or a good cop, that it entirely up to the administration that he works for. If you don't like the situation or don't agree with the way it is handled, then you bring it up to their attention and they will deal with it as they see fit. I can assure you that if it keeps happening and his personnel file gets fat with complaints and disciplinary actions, eventually he'll be looking for employment elsewhere, possibly in a different trade. If he learns from his mistakes, he uses the event as a learning experience and do better the next time a similar situation presents itself. Eventually and hopefully, he'll grow to become the kind of cop that people admire and respect and what he does wont be the hot topic of the Internet Forums.
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  8. #52
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    I think there is two sides to every story...perceptions can be reality...what the LEO perceived will no-doubt be different than what the other party sees. Not doubting the original story...but before filing a complaint...perhaps it would be better to seek out the LEO and discuss one-on-one your perceptions. In turn, you might get his perceptions. If that went no-where...then I would go higher.

    Rick

  9. #53
    Senior Member Array Sergeant Mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    I think there are two types of LEO's in this situation. You have the kind that support the second amendment and don't get into a tizzy at the sight of a gun, or at the fact you tell them you have one.

    Then you have these guys who I honestly think are few and far between, young, power hungry guys like in this situation who think only LEO's should be allowed guns... because after all us commonors are too stupid to have them.
    Leaving the political analysis aside, and speaking purely from a tactical standpoint, I'd have to disagree on a minor point.

    I think there are THREE avenues by which a LEO might approach this type of situation:

    Underreacting, overreacting, and reacting within a range which is generally considered "appropriate".

  10. #54
    Distinguished Member Array Pro2A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergeant Mac View Post
    Leaving the political analysis aside, and speaking purely from a tactical standpoint, I'd have to disagree on a minor point.

    I think there are THREE avenues by which a LEO might approach this type of situation:

    Underreacting, overreacting, and reacting within a range which is generally considered "appropriate".
    Agreed. But either way overreacting is still not cool and LEO's do violate rights based on feeling and not probable cause.

  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Sorry for the long reply Ben, I just got back from church.


    If I in a situation where an LEO was pointing a gun at me, I would do EXACTLY what he told me to do. There will be time to sort everything out later.

    When some Cop is pointing a gun on you and his finger is on the trigger that is not the time to argue or second guess. Your only priority there is to not get shot. If you feel like the actions were unjustified, you have your lawyer argue the fine points with the Police Dept when its over.

    Fact of the matter is, you wont be able to tell a bad cop from a good cop in one stop. Its not up to us to determine whether he is a bad cop or a good cop, that it entirely up to the administration that he works for. If you don't like the situation or don't agree with the way it is handled, then you bring it up to their attention and they will deal with it as they see fit. I can assure you that if it keeps happening and his personnel file gets fat with complaints and disciplinary actions, eventually he'll be looking for employment elsewhere, possibly in a different trade. If he learns from his mistakes, he uses the event as a learning experience and do better the next time a similar situation presents itself. Eventually and hopefully, he'll grow to become the kind of cop that people admire and respect and what he does wont be the hot topic of the Internet Forums.
    HotGuns you impress me of being a wise man and everything you said in this thread is smart thinking. I'm glad you are here to explain the other side.

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMH View Post
    snip~What is the local climate like in Washington? Is it gun friendly? ~snip
    The attitude toward guns depends on what part of Washington you are in. Western Washington, where this happened, is very liberal and generally anti-gun. Also, the LEOs have to deal with a lot more gangs and scum than on the East side of the state. Hence, a more suspicious attitude about partially hidden guns.

    Eastern Washington is more conservative and far more gun friendly. Generally speaking, as long as you are cooperative, the Officer would be more likely to strike up a conversation with you about your carry weapon than point his own weapon at you.

    That said, the leprechaun in question did seem to be overly excited.

  13. #57
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    I think some are possibly missing a point or two. A lot agencies train to do a felony stop if a gun is noticed during a traffic stop. This is not being anti gun or anti CCW. It is considered protecting yourself during a stop.
    I think the way the cop acted after the stop is more to the point of why a call to his superior may be in order. As said, once a LEO has drawn a gun, best course of action is to follow his instructions. He/she is cranked up on adrenaline, it makes for a seriously tense situation. Arguing or explaining should be done later, as many BG's try to BS their way toward complacency of the officer trying to get them to hesitate .
    Consider how the officer sees the stop. He approaches, sees a gun, orders you to get out. you try to explain you have a CCW permit. Even unintentionally distracting or explaining puts him even more uneasy , cause BG's have tried this before on him/he has been trained to look for this tactic.
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  14. #58
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    I think some people are too eager to roast the LEO.
    Maybe he did over-react, maybe it was he is relatively new and it was his first firearm seen during a traffic stop. I would have reacted in a manner which would get me home at the end of my shift (albeit...no finger on the trigger as you describe, that definitely needs to be brought up with the LE Agency)

    1. Get the light fixed on the car.
    2. Contact the agency and check into the department's procedures/policies for a situation such as this.

    leprachaun....reminds me of the time the wife and I are on I-20 just outside Abilene, in our Dodge Stratus at the time, we get pulled over by a Taylor county deputy, came to passenger window and I swear that when I rolled down that window I was almost face to face with this deputy, I had to fight REALLY hard to not grin/laugh at his lack of perpendicular
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  15. #59
    Senior Member Array blueyedevil's Avatar
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    I think some people are to eager to coddle the LEO. Forget the badge and the uniform and ask whether what he did was reasonable or not. And judge the actions on that basis, guess what, an LEO is just another citizen. Sure he has a moderately tough job and is exposed to moderate amounts of danger, but that description fits a whole lot of people. And a whole lot of other people have it a lot worse and don't get the luxury of everyone giving them the benefit of the doubt just cause they have flashy lights on their work vehicle. Bottom line is, if someone stuffs a gun in someones face for no good reason, they belong in jail, or dead. No further argument needed.

  16. #60
    Senior Member Array Sergeant Mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueyedevil View Post
    I think some people are to eager to coddle the LEO. Forget the badge and the uniform and ask whether what he did was reasonable or not. And judge the actions on that basis, guess what, an LEO is just another citizen. Sure he has a moderately tough job and is exposed to moderate amounts of danger, but that description fits a whole lot of people.
    There's one factor which you're failing to consider.

    "Just another citizen" won't get raked over the coals for NOT doing something he/she deems too dangerous.

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